[Winstonm]

Quote

The figures highlight just how much more at risk the unvaccinated population has been this year: In all age groups, the state's unvaccinated were 40 times more likely to die than fully vaccinated people. The study also found that the unvaccinated in all age groups were 45 times more likely to have a coronavirus infection than fully vaccinated people

Texas.

[mycroft]

The problem is, of course, that the Libertarians also think that they people who aren't pro-vaccine should be entitled to everything the vaccinated get. I don't see how that balances with their idea of property rights being paramount - the owner of the bar won't let you in? Well, it's their property, their rules, no? - but again, I don't think many of them have thought past "nobody but me gets to decide what I can do" to the actual results of that philosophy if the world around them agrees.

I (good little socialist that I am) absolutely think that the role of government is to do what's best for society as a whole, especially in situations where "tragedy of the commons" applies, or "global prisoner's dilemma" applies (if almost everybody does the "right thing that's not best for themselves specifically", then the few outliers get all the upside with little to none of the downside) (*). Antivaxx has relied on the latter up until now - almost everybody is getting vaccinated against X, so they protect "my precious little child" from the disease without the "risk" of actually vaccinating them. For reasons - including some people making it a mainstream political issue - not "almost everybody" has taken this one, and the downsides are - this thread. Whether that will wake any of them up - at least any of them that don't lose a relative or themselves first - is a question.

But I can live with "government shouldn't coerce people". That doesn't mean "government should force everybody else to 'just let them live with no consequences'." You can't go to restaurants/bars/conventions/concerts if you're not vaccinated? That's *your choice, man* - deal with it. Either step up and do what society expects of you, or watch as society passes you by.

Note: Christians who know their history should understand this - it absolutely is part of their history that they're proud of (as long as *they* don't have to be the martyrs). From my experience with them, Jews do understand this - it's even more of their history (cue the joke about Jewish holidays: "They tried to kill us. They failed. Let's eat.") Quakers are famous for it - as are the old order Mennonites and Amish. But too many libertarians are "started on third base" people who can only see where they're being restricted by society/government, not what they've gained from it.

What really annoys me is that although "the wisdom of the masses" is definitely a thing, individuals are stupid. About something, at least, every single one of us. Any philosophy that relies on each individual person doing X because not-X is stupid, rather than "we should insist on everybody doing X because X is obviously right", is either hopelessly deluded, politically blinkered, or just hasn't looked around at how the last n rounds of it went. But I repeat myself.

(*) And I certainly can see the failure modes of *that* line of thinking. In fact, much of 20th century history is the result of governments "doing what's best for society as a whole", except that not really. On all sides of the political spectrum.

[Winstonm]

Quote

The founder of one of the largest Christian TV networks in the world has died of COVID-19 after promoting anti-vaccine skeptics and unproven alternative treatments for the virus in his programming. Marcus Lamb, who created Daystar Television Network, died Tuesday morning at the age of 64, his wife said in a Tuesday broadcast.

Nobody gets too much heaven no more
It's much harder to come by
I'm waiting in line

[Winstonm]

Stupid is a worldwide condition

Quote

ATHENS—COVID-19 has been tearing through Orthodox Christian communities across Greece, infecting one unvaccinated religious leader after another and prompting some priests and monks to rethink their stance on the jabs.

Last month, at least four unvaccinated monks from Mount Athos, a COVID hotbed and one of the most important centers of Eastern Orthodox monasticism in the world, died of the virus. The issue extends to priests, too: Just last week, a priest in the city of Patra and a 46-year-old Archimandrite in Thessaloniki died of COVID-19. Both were unvaccinated.

[Cyberyeti]

Not somebody who died, but I think this belongs here https://www.bbc.co.u...europe-59524527

[Winstonm]

Anchors Away

Quote

The Navy has begun kicking out sailors who refuse to get the Covid-19 vaccine, but it won’t slap dishonorable discharges on anyone for their decision to ignore a direct order.

[Chas_P]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Cyberyeti]

Chas_P, on 2021-December-15, 20:18, said:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Liberty is two sided. My liberty not to be infected by an irresponsible idiot conflicts with your liberty not to take any anti Covid precautions. These situations tend to end up legislated, you can't work in certain jobs without certain vaccinations already (at least here in the UK) and I have no problem with Covid being added to the list of required jabs. There are now VERY few people who can't be jabbed (who deserve all possible support) but those that can but won't be are showing that they are not responsible members of society and don't deserve to be treated as such.

In my own case, nobody could tell me whether the jab was safe, the research simply hadn't been done for the issue I have, I have had 3 jabs now thankfully without incident as I decided I had to take that risk to be able to move around in society with a clear conscience.

PS - I wonder how the "He wouldn't wear a mask, he was breathing all over me, I felt threatened so I shot him" defence would go in court, I suspect fine as long as you were white and the other guy wasn't.

[Winstonm]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-December-16, 03:54, said:

Liberty is two sided. My liberty not to be infected by an irresponsible idiot conflicts with your liberty not to take any anti Covid precautions. These situations tend to end up legislated, you can't work in certain jobs without certain vaccinations already (at least here in the UK) and I have no problem with Covid being added to the list of required jabs. There are now VERY few people who can't be jabbed (who deserve all possible support) but those that can but won't be are showing that they are not responsible members of society and don't deserve to be treated as such.

In my own case, nobody could tell me whether the jab was safe, the research simply hadn't been done for the issue I have, I have had 3 jabs now thankfully without incident as I decided I had to take that risk to be able to move around in society with a clear conscience.

PS - I wonder how the "He wouldn't wear a mask, he was breathing all over me, I felt threatened so I shot him" defence would go in court, I suspect fine as long as you were white and the other guy wasn't.

On this side of the pond, we are blessed with an abundance of fools who confuse slogans with axioms, bumper stickers with facts. These are the people who argue they should be allowed to fire rifle shots blindly into the air if they want, and if the bullets kill, well that's a shame but liberty trumps public safety; besides, those who were struck by a stray bullet that they had no idea was heading their way should have been more careful.

[pilowsky]

Chas_P, on 2021-December-15, 20:18, said:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Those who quote clever people really ought to make an attempt to understand what the quote means.
Or is this one of those bits of "American humour" that I don't understand"?
From NPR (not Fox)

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

[Chas_P]

In August I bought a substantial chunk of Pfizer (PFE) @$45.23. It closed today @$61.26. Needless to say, I am a huge fan of vaccines. OTOH I am a huge fan of those who, for whatever reason, refuse to take it. It's the American way. You, and others like you, can take Ben Franklin's comment as you wish. I'll take it as I wish. “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

[kenberg]

pilowsky, on 2021-December-16, 15:11, said:

Those who quote clever people really ought to make an attempt to understand what the quote means.
Or is this one of those bits of "American humour" that I don't understand"?
From NPR (not Fox)

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

First I am impressed and second, which perhaps should be first, thanks.
But now, and I read the whole NPR thing, I have some thoughts, or I am trying to.

"Those" is a pronoun, referring to the Penns? Assuming this is so, what "essential liberty" were they willing to exchange for "safety"? Or does "Those" refer to those who are willing to trade the right to tax in exchange for an immediate gift from the Penns? I guess that's it. Not for the first time, I am not really sure what Franklin was saying. He liked these very wise sayings.

Quoting wise sayings is usually folly, partly as you show above, but also simply on general principles.

My favorite quote has always been "A lot of the things I said I didn't say". Some Bear said that. Of course, he might or might not have said it. We could update this to "A lot of the things I said didn't mean what they claim I meant".

"Take the vaccine or live alone in a cave and stay there." That makes perfect sense, requires no historical research, and is very clear.

We are in for another really tough round with covid, in large part because a bunch of idiots are happily going about spreading it. The American way? I sure as hell hope it's not the American way. It's a suicidal way.

Suicide is a choice. Taking the rest of along on a suicide pack? No. Get the vaccine or withdraw permanently from society. Those are allowed choices. Serving as a carrier of the disease because no one can tell you to get the vaccine is not an allowed choice. Or it shouldn't be.

[pilowsky]

Chas_P, on 2021-December-16, 19:02, said:

I'll take it as I wish.

Sure why not.
After all alternative facts appear to be the "American way" as well.
How about the American way of:

Emma Lazarus said:

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Or does that only apply to certain people?

[pilowsky]

kenberg, on 2021-December-16, 19:08, said:

First I am impressed and second, which perhaps should be first, thanks.
But now, and I read the whole NPR thing, I have some thoughts, or I am trying to.

"Those" is a pronoun, referring to the Penns? Assuming this is so, what "essential liberty" were they willing to exchange for "safety"? Or does "Those" refer to those who are willing to trade the right to tax in exchange for an immediate gift from the Penns? I guess that's it. Not for the first time, I am not really sure what Franklin was saying. He liked these very wise sayings.

Quoting wise sayings is usually folly, partly as you show above, but also simply on general principles.

My favorite quote has always been "A lot of the things I said I didn't say". Some Bear said that. Of course, he might or might not have said it. We could update this to "A lot of the things I said didn't mean what they claim I meant".

"Take the vaccine or live alone in a cave and stay there." That makes perfect sense, requires no historical research, and is very clear.

We are in for another really tough round with covid, in large part because a bunch of idiots are happily going about spreading it. The American way? I sure as hell hope it's not the American way. It's a suicidal way.

Suicide is a choice. Taking the rest of along on a suicide pack? No. Get the vaccine or withdraw permanently from society. Those are allowed choices. Serving as a carrier of the disease because no one can tell you to get the vaccine is not an allowed choice. Or it shouldn't be.

The really strange thing is that none of it makes any sense. Vaccine mandates are a part of US culture.
When I visited UNC my children were initially refused admission to the local school because they didn't have all the necessary vaccinations.
At the same time we were jokingly (I assumed at the time) being informed about the war of northern aggression.


What is new is the nexus between vaccination and politics.
Australia is not short of strange ideas - just look at our Prime Minister - but as of today 90% of the population aged 16+ are vaccinated.


Here's a link to a Masters thesis relating the US response to the influenza pandemic.

[Chas_P]

pilowsky, on 2021-December-16, 19:41, said:

Sure why not.
After all alternative facts appear to be the "American way" as well.
How about the American way of:

[/size]
Or does that only apply to certain people?

Ah, yes. Utopia. Maybe some day. I doubt neither you nor I will be around to see it. But maybe someday.

[kenberg]

pilowsky, on 2021-December-16, 19:52, said:

The really strange thing is that none of it makes any sense. Vaccine mandates are a part of US culture.
When I visited UNC my children were initially refused admission to the local school because they didn't have all the necessary vaccinations.
At the same time we were jokingly (I assumed at the time) being informed about the war of northern aggression.

What is new is the nexus between vaccination and politics.
Australia is not short of strange ideas - just look at our Prime Minister - but as of today 90% of the population aged 16+ are vaccinated.

Here's a link to a Masters thesis relating the US response to the influenza pandemic.

Your first sentence says it all. It makes no sense. various plagues and epidemics have come and gone and while perhaps some nut in one place or another thought we should just let people spread it around as they see fit, the nut was surely seen as a nut. It's impossible to imagine Franklin, or Jefferson, or Madison or most anyone from farmer to statesman saying "Oh sure, we wouldn't want to trample on his rights, let him spread away".

I realize I have overstated a bit in saying the unvaccinated must live in a cave. What is needed is a very broad agreement that vaccinations are a must unless there are very specific individual reasons to the contrary. A person who, for some reason, can't cope with a vaccination needs to accept that this poses a problem and that he is then expected to cooperate in some way to help solve that problem. I can be accepting of special circumstances. But the argument that everyone has a right to just go around spreading disease pushes the argument for exceptional cases aside.

I regard myself as tolerant of views different from my own, but there are special cases, and a pandemic is a special case. As you say, the argument that people can just choose not to cooperate in coping with a pandemic that has caused massive harm, death, sickness, lost jobs, overwhelmed hospitals, and just say "I have my rights" makes no sense at all. There is no way, historical or moral or rational, for this to make sense. And I feel silly arguing about such a stupid claim.

So I hope we can move on to other aspects of the problem.

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2021-December-16, 23:14, said:

Your first sentence says it all. It makes no sense. various plagues and epidemics have come and gone and while perhaps some nut in one place or another thought we should just let people spread it around as they see fit, the nut was surely seen as a nut. It's impossible to imagine Franklin, or Jefferson, or Madison or most anyone from farmer to statesman saying "Oh sure, we wouldn't want to trample on his rights, let him spread away".

I realize I have overstated a bit in saying the unvaccinated must live in a cave. What is needed is a very broad agreement that vaccinations are a must unless there are very specific individual reasons to the contrary. A person who, for some reason, can't cope with a vaccination needs to accept that this poses a problem and that he is then expected to cooperate in some way to help solve that problem. I can be accepting of special circumstances. But the argument that everyone has a right to just go around spreading disease pushes the argument for exceptional cases aside.

I regard myself as tolerant of views different from my own, but there are special cases, and a pandemic is a special case. As you say, the argument that people can just choose not to cooperate in coping with a pandemic that has caused massive harm, death, sickness, lost jobs, overwhelmed hospitals, and just say "I have my rights" makes no sense at all. There is no way, historical or moral or rational, for this to make sense. And I feel silly arguing about such a stupid claim.

So I hope we can move on to other aspects of the problem.

Unfortunately, the refusal to receive vaccinations has become a co-equal problem with the virus itself. The chain of infection has to be interrupted, and vaccinations do that. That the remarkable speed at which vaccines became available was wasted because of political expediency is tragic - and that problem continues.

[Winstonm]

Quote

An Italian anti-vaxxer and COVID-denier who sparked outrage after declaring himself a "plague spreader" and boasting about how he walked around sick and maskless in a supermarket has died of COVID-19, according to local media reports.

Maurizio Buratti, also known as Mauro from Mantua, died in a Verona hospital Monday, just a few weeks after being hospitalized. He was 61.

La dolce stupido

[johnu]

Winstonm, on 2021-December-29, 15:12, said:

Quote

An Italian anti-vaxxer and COVID-denier who sparked outrage after declaring himself a "plague spreader" and boasting about how he walked around sick and maskless in a supermarket has died of COVID-19, according to local media reports.

Maurizio Buratti, also known as Mauro from Mantua, died in a Verona hospital Monday, just a few weeks after being hospitalized. He was 61.

La dolce stupido

I was trying to think of a few words of condolence, but the only thing that comes to mind is "Good Riddance".

[kenberg]

There are a small number of people that I know first hand who will not take the vaccine, and a bigger group that are friends or relatives of friends rejectnig masks and vaccines. I accept that there is nothing I can do directly about this.
If a construction worker shows up drunk, he is not allowed to operate the fork lift. He has a constitutional right to drink, he does not have a right to endanger the rest of us. This philosphy tranfers pretty well. If someone insists he has a right to reject the vaccine and to not wear a mask, perhaps that is so. He does not have a right to endanger the rest of us. He can stay home, no vaccine, no mask, no contact with anyone.

I am not up for wishing bad for anyone, and we don't have to. We need to protect ourselves. That is a serious need.