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Good grief!

#21 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 07:51

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-July-23, 05:42, said:

this auction makes little sense, jillybean. not your fault as you decided 1 then 2 but your partner to raise to 4, that wastes value bidding room imo. your partner did not reverse after opening, so what hand could partner have here??? 4414 or 4405 with 15-16 maybe? if the 4th suit is a GF he does not need to bid 4. if partner has 4414 0r 4405 with < 14 high points and wants to show a minimum hand by fast arriving, then that's all I can think his hand can be.

Im guessing always here, but you arrive in a slam and partner has a hand or similar such as QJxx QJxx x AKxx and you can never find out about the two losers...


But if they don't take them they walk, so I'm not that unhappy, the leader only has AK 1/4 of the time.
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#22 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 08:22

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-July-23, 05:42, said:

Im guessing always here, but you arrive in a slam and partner has a hand or similar such as QJxx QJxx x AKxx and you can never find out about the two losers...

This is a an issue using Kickback if partner has signed off with a Min and you have values for a slam. This is why I've switched during lockdown to showing rather than asking for kCs; i.e
4NT even KCs
5 odd KCs with control
5 odd KCs with control denies control
etc.
Additional bids sub 5 continue to show controls so stopping in 5 is possible when the control isn't shown.
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#23 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 11:05

I fully agree, the auction I had was a total dogs breakfast. Having no agreements in regards to slam bidding and only having "jumps show strength" left me guessing.
I think the start of the auction is difficult, even with agreements and I am not sure I want to use a SJS to set diamonds as trump this early and bury the spades.



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#24 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 11:12

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-July-23, 02:37, said:



This is something in the rules of bridge that has confused me quite a few times, actually. Partner has clearly assumed that 2 shows spades (and you have them, which is great!). Does that mean they are compelled to interpret all future bids as if spades have been agreed, or can they 'wake up' on subsequent rounds of bidding? All bids over 4 have sensible meaning both with and without a spade fit.

In theory, I think, partner can wake up at any tim. The problem, in real life, is that there is often a clue given out by partner. It’s very difficult for partner, having inferred that something’s gone wrong, not to break tempo even if he or she is able to refrain from giving out body language or facial expressions. Screens help, and being online helps.
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#25 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 11:31

  • Soloway JS is a specific version of Strong JS that limits the hand types to 3:
    • balanced hands too strong for other bids in system (will rebid NT);
    • one-suited hands slam-invitational or better (will rebid suit);
    • two-suited hands, *including opener's* (will cuebid, any suit but the JS one. Rebidding opener's suit implies no side cuebid).
    So I agree with others, this is not a Soloway JS (2 then 2/3 shows diamonds and clubs (and a spade control). I prefer these to "16+" (even "19+") explicitly because jumping with no known place to play runs you out of room really fast.
  • Speaking of running out of room, I'm putting partner on 4=4=1=4 or 4=4=2=3 (if you wouldn't bid 1NT with that one), dead minimum.

    Assuming partner's on the same page about 2 (NAT GF+) of course. I need Qxxx, the heart Ace, and either A or K to have a play for 6 (QJ would be nice so I can ruff high and use the 3 to get to the board to pull trump). Unless partner's "dead minimum" can't be "two aces" (which I would argue for; if partner has a slam interest hand, all she might need is two aces. I've had hands where "if your 13 points were just a single ace, I would have made slam"), I should try something.

    Unfortunately, partner's taken away the opportunity to be delicate, and I'm pretty certain that nothing but "two with/out" is going to stop me from guessing. If you're playing first-round controls at the 5 level, that's nice, because 5 will let you know about the club ace, I guess. If your partner is the type to blame you when "I told you I had nothing", well, 4+2 is likely a better result for partnership harmony than 6-2, and you can discuss all the options after the game.

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#26 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 12:44

This isn’t an easy hand

I play T-Walsh so I won’t post my likely auction.

Playing ‘normal’, but with 1S as ambiguous 4th suit gf, with or without spades:


1C 1D
1H 1S

1H shows an unbalanced hand, but I don’t think that playing up the line impacts this hand anyway


Opener bids 2S, showing (if 1H showed an unbalanced hand) 4405 or 4414. If up the line, then it shows 4423/4414/4405


Responder has a slam try hand, so bids 3S.

Now cuebidding follows via 4C, 4D, 4H


Responder uses keycard. The 5H response is annoying but the hand is too strong to sign off in 5S.

5N promises all the keycards but doesn’t promise the spade Queen (if it does for you, I’d jump to 6N rather than potentially mislead partner via 5N. 6N must have play opposite any hand on which opener cuebid, since he ought not to cuebid with a complete minimum).

Playing 5N as asking for the number of kings leads to 6N immediately. Playing specific kings, this takes another round…6C…6D….6H…6N


I’d like to claim that opener can and should raise 6N to 7N, and indeed I think it’s clearly correct to do so. Responder has declined to play in spades, so his diamonds must be solid. Assuming he has 6 of them, which is probable given 6 N opposite xxxx AKxx x AKxx, that heart Queen ought to be the 13th trick.

In real life, I suspect I’d sit there as opener, telling myself I should bid 7N, and then pass


If we have to jump to 2S over 1H to show spades, a treatment I would never willingly play, over opener’s 3S (clearly it’s best to use 4S as a terrible minimum with four spades), responder has an awkward hand. However, 4D fetches 4H and opener should not cue over 4D without a club control….since responder denied one by cuebidding diamonds. I think all roads lead to the same 6N, with opener thinking about 7.


Note that there is zero reason to play in spades. Our diamonds will deliver 6 tricks almost all the time even opposite a void. Count winners! 6 diamonds and the AK of all side suits…playing in spades deserves 2 spade losers.
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#27 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 13:24

Late to the thread.
I would have rebid 2 artificial game force, now partner has a difficult decision.
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#28 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 15:32

There is no "regular" system I know of where 1s is not forcing, natural or not. I fail to see any benefit to taking up valuable bidding space by making a nebulous 2s "undiscussed" bid when there is so much I need to find out about this hand. I have some sympathy for the 2d soloway jump shifters but I personally hate to arbitrarily bypass a possible 44 fit in the majors early in the bidding.
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#29 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 17:27

Why does anyone say that 2D over 1C is a Soloway jumpshift?

It’s not

It could be a strong jumpshift but a Soloway jumpshift is a subset of strong jumpshifts and they do not include this hand type
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#30 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 18:39


For what it's worth, I designed a hand yesterday that roughly fitted the parameters of your problem and gave it to GIB on a Bidding table.
They started out as you describe and alert the 2 bid as natural and forcing.

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#31 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 21:05

View Postmikeh, on 2021-July-23, 17:27, said:

Why does anyone say that 2D over 1C is a Soloway jumpshift?

It's not




Guilty! Although I've never played SJS I've always associated them with a weaker-than-standard jump shift so I was the one who first used the term in this thread. I have now been duly chastised.

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#32 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-July-24, 02:51

Not sure if this is fantasy:

1-1
1-1(4SF not GF)
2(nat 15+ GF)-3 (big diamond suit, slammy)
3-3
4-4
4-4N(keycard)
5(2w/o)-5N(tell me more)
6-6
6-7N

E has managed to cue AKQ and AK.
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#33 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-July-24, 09:27

As mentioned, if East opens 1 then we are heading into XYZ.
On a dull day it would probably go:
1 - 1
1 - 2 (art FG)
2 - 3
4 - 4
and so on, sputtering out in 6 when West realises he has no clue about Q.

If West had just downed an espresso and was feeling like masterminding then he might risk a game forcing raise of hearts, which would work out nicely:
1 - 1
1 - 3 (nat FG)
4 (,!) - 4 ()
5 (,odd) - 5 ()
6 (, !, !, Q) - 7N
p
where West has located AKQ and KQ.
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