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Good grief!

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 16:06

I love this hand.


When I pick up this hand I'm already thinking "how high?" and then partner opens 1. :D

How do you proceed here, how do you treat 1 and 2, or something else?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 16:26

In my regular system we are still in 'full Dutch doubleton' theory, and both 1 and 2 are conventional (and so were all bids thus far, sorry).

In a more normal system it is quite popular to play 1 natural and 2 4SF. Of course, some partnerships decide to invert the two. I hope you have discussed this sequence.

Lastly it is important to note that if you play Walsh 1 tentatively denies a major suit unless GF, so there is some merit to bypassing a 4-card major with a balanced minimum (especially when playing weak NT, 1-1; 1NT (15-17) won't miss a 4-4 major suit fit unless responder is GF). With this agreement partner is showing an unbalanced club-heart hand. Tough!
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#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 19:15

This is a good hand for Soloway jump shifts so after 2D the bidding is all natural. That would be my preferred start with this hand.
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#4 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 19:21

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-22, 19:15, said:

This is a good hand for Soloway jump shifts so after 2D the bidding is all natural. That would be my preferred start with this hand.

I'm not sure about 'all natural'; after Soloway at least how I've always understood it, you can never play in spades, as a new suit later is a splinter. It would definitely make finding the right diamond slam easier, but is it worth giving up a possible spade fit?
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#5 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 19:28

I never played it that way but I would not argue with your claim. Maybe I adopted it to my ideas - I really don’t remember. Still, I always liked the idea of weaker strong jump shifts. I probably got that from reading so much Reese.
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#6 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 19:52

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-22, 19:15, said:

This is a good hand for Soloway jump shifts so after 2D the bidding is all natural. That would be my preferred start with this hand.


agree. yes, there are other ways of playing Soloway Js, as smerriman has said, but 2 here does not set the trump suit imo. you want to tell partner you have a strong hand from the start. 1 is natural and can be NF in some partnerships. 2 can be 4thSF (GF) but does not show this powerful hand. the only way is Soloway, and then the soloway bidder is in charge, except if opener has a good hand himself. with 1 opener being 2+/3+ in most 2/1 systems, partner can show 4 card major suits up line after 2.

the reason for soloway which should only be used upto a max of 2 imo with 2/1 is to tell partner straight away that you are in possible slam zone.
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#7 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 20:40

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-July-22, 19:52, said:

agree. yes, there are other ways of playing Soloway Js, as smerriman has said, but 2 here does not set the trump suit imo.

The entire premise behind Soloway is that in order to make up for the space lost by jumping, it has to show precisely defined hands.

With Soloway these are strong balanced, one suited, or two suited with support for partner; so if you use it on this hand you will have to set the suit as diamonds and accept that you can't play in spades.

But perhaps you are mixing up Soloway and older strong jump shifts.
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#8 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 20:47

There are at least 4 "standard" ways of playing here

1. 1 is natural and F1R; 2 is art 4SF
2. 1 is nat and GF; 2 is art 4SF
3. 1 is art 4SF; 2 is nat and GF
4. 1 is 2-way, possibly natural but might also be art GF

This is an auction you typically need to chat about with a regular partner. It makes a difference whether Opener rebids NT with a balanced hand or you play up-the-line.
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#9 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-July-22, 23:58

For us 1S is fourth suit forcing. It doesn't promise spades, but it doesn't deny spades and partner can bid 2S (to show a 4414 or 4405 hand).

I don't play strong jump shifts in my main partnership, but if I did, a two-suited hand would not be suitable.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 00:45

The other sequence that needs discussion is:

1-1
1-14SF
1N/2-2

We rebid 1N with a minimum 4414, 2 by opener shows extras so for us 2 is forcing and ostensibly natural
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#11 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 01:50

I try to avoid HCP because it always ends badly for me.
Playing with the robots, a Soloway jump shift is the easy choice - 17+ points and a solid suit.
Unfortunately, this option is frowned upon in most Australian clubs where everyone seems to prefer Weak Jump Shifts.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#12 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 01:52

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-July-22, 20:40, said:

The entire premise behind Soloway is that in order to make up for the space lost by jumping, it has to show precisely defined hands.

With Soloway these are strong balanced, one suited, or two suited with support for partner; so if you use it on this hand you will have to set the suit as diamonds and accept that you can't play in spades.

But perhaps you are mixing up Soloway and older strong jump shifts.


I have a great suit so would be prepared to suppress the spades, and would bid 2. Having said that, partner still has an opportunity to bid Spades, and if they have Kx(x)(x) of hearts, then playing a spade contract from their side of the table is much better.

Missing spades seems most likely if partner has both majors and spades can get lost in a 4SF sequence. In Acol partner has promised 4 clubs, so the 4-4 majors hands are limited to 4=4=1=4 or 4=4=0=5. This makes the risk less than in the OP's system, and might reduce the validity of my answer in the posted circumstances.
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 02:19

I chose 2 (undiscussed)

Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 02:33

View Postjillybean, on 2021-July-23, 02:19, said:

I chose 2 (undiscussed)



Bidding 2 undiscussed is really bad (it's a splinter agreeing hearts for us so 4 is kickback).

If I think partner will interpret 2 as you intended, I bid 4N.
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#15 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 02:37

If I was sure that partner knew that 2 was natural, so that spades have been agreed, then you can bid 5 now. From your description I think there is a real risk partner will play you for a hand with strong diamonds and no spades, and pass. 4NT also doesn't get there if partner shows one key card. Similarly, partner may (again, assuming partner thinks we intended 2 as 4SF) pass 5 and assume a hand like 1=3=5=4.
Without agreements just bid 4NT (blackwood in spades), that way you can stop in 5 if partner shows zero, and the grand is in the picture if partner shows two and the queen. Opposite 1 keycard I'd push to slam and pray.

This is something in the rules of bridge that has confused me quite a few times, actually. Partner has clearly assumed that 2 shows spades (and you have them, which is great!). Does that mean they are compelled to interpret all future bids as if spades have been agreed, or can they 'wake up' on subsequent rounds of bidding? All bids over 4 have sensible meaning both with and without a spade fit.
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#16 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 02:44

I can count 8 + 2QT after the open so don't want to stop before 3NT
Without any agreement 1 natural looking for East to be 4423/4414/4405 followed by slam exploration

3 after a non- response hoping for a 4 response 2434/1435 etc. followed by the slam exploration.

How would 4 be interpreted after a 3NT response - still looking for the /NT slam?

I'd have less of an issue with my partner in an unbalanced /Transfer Walsh system where 1 is GF allowing opener to shape out.
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 02:57

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-July-23, 02:37, said:


This is something in the rules of bridge that has confused me quite a few times, actually. Partner has clearly assumed that 2 shows spades (and you have them, which is great!). Does that mean they are compelled to interpret all future bids as if spades have been agreed, or can they 'wake up' on subsequent rounds of bidding? All bids over 4 have sensible meaning both with and without a spade fit.

I think the latter, when subsequent rounds reveal a different hand there is no UI.

On this hand I wasn't sure that 1 would be forcing, jumps show strength and we have no splinters, kickback etc.

(I will post the full hand later)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#18 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 03:46

View Postjillybean, on 2021-July-23, 02:57, said:

I think the latter, when subsequent rounds reveal a different hand there is no UI.
The problem is that subsequent rounds do not reveal a different hand here. 5/ can well be a slam try in spades, instead of a desire to play. What a mess, especially if you need some time to rethink your options over the jump raise.
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#19 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 05:42

View Postjillybean, on 2021-July-23, 02:19, said:

I chose 2 (undiscussed)



this auction makes little sense, jillybean. not your fault as you decided 1 then 2 but your partner to raise to 4, that wastes value bidding room imo. your partner did not reverse after opening, so what hand could partner have here??? 4414 or 4405 with 15-16 maybe? if the 4th suit is a GF he does not need to bid 4. if partner has 4414 0r 4405 with < 14 high points and wants to show a minimum hand by fast arriving, then that's all I can think his hand can be.

Im guessing always here, but you arrive in a slam and partner has a hand or similar such as QJxx QJxx x AKxx and you can never find out about the two losers...
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#20 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-23, 06:48

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-July-23, 05:42, said:

this auction makes little sense, jillybean. not your fault as you decided 1 then 2 but your partner to raise to 4, that wastes value bidding room imo. your partner did not reverse after opening, so what hand could partner have here??? 4414 or 4405 with 15-16 maybe? if the 4th suit is a GF he does not need to bid 4. if partner has 4414 0r 4405 with < 14 high points and wants to show a minimum hand by fast arriving, then that's all I can think his hand can be.

Im guessing always here, but you arrive in a slam and partner has a hand or similar such as QJxx QJxx x AKxx and you can never find out about the two losers...


Fully agree with this post and might add that keycard also is not an answer as you can't find out about the king of hearts - is the holding QJxx or KQ or KJ?
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