BBO Discussion Forums: "Run the hearts" - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

"Run the hearts"

#1 User is online   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,210
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-May-29, 11:01

I was asked about this at the club the other day, I assume the answer is yes.
Declarer tells dummy to "Run the Hearts", is declarer then allowed to instruct dummy to stop running the hearts and make another play?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#2 User is online   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,919
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2021-May-29, 11:27

"run the hearts" has been ruled to be legally equivalent to "top heart, please". Otherwise it would have to be a claim of those tricks, and that isn't technically feasible.

It is always a shock to the defenders when they first find that out. I find that uncomfortable, so I discourage the phrase whenever I hear it.

As dummy, I play the top heart and then wait for the next call. After two or three of those, declarer gets the point. But passive-aggressive education tends not to be the best way of making friends, so it's not a suggestion for others.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 377
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-May-29, 14:01

I have never heard that said "run the hearts" I thought it was compulsory to name a suit and a number, that is, a card specifically. Except where dummy has a stiff card where the suit only will be ok. I have heard "Heart(or any any other suit) from the top" and that says play the top card in the suit. but there is a difference ( as I now understand "run the hearts") between "run the hearts" and "run all the hearts". so, I guess, that declarer can stop "running the hearts" whenever he likes.

But that could also cause confusion as dummy has been instructed to do as declarer says and might pull a card out before declarer thinks "stop" and changes his mind. so, in my mind, it is wrong to give dummy temporary control of the hand. every decision should be made by declarer, and declarer only.
0

#4 User is online   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,294
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2021-May-29, 14:34

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-29, 11:01, said:

I was asked about this at the club the other day, I assume the answer is yes.
Declarer tells dummy to "Run the Hearts", is declarer then allowed to instruct dummy to stop running the hearts and make another play?

Law 46B said:

In the case of an incomplete or invalid designation, the following restrictions apply (except when declarer’s different intention is incontrovertible):

I believe there can be little doubt that declarer's intention in this case is to play the hearts one by one from top to bottom.

'Run the hearts' cannot reasonably be constructed as a claim, and so long as declarer does not claim he may at any time stop Dummy from leading another heart and instruct him to instead lead a different card.

Law 68A said:

Claim Defined
Any statement by declarer or a defender to the effect that a side will win a specific number of tricks is a claim of those tricks. A player also claims when he suggests that play be curtailed, or when he shows his cards

1

#5 User is online   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,919
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2021-May-29, 15:13

Apart from the inability to sanely rule, what part of "Any statement by declarer...to the effect that a side will win a specific number of tricks' doesn't jive with "run the hearts" = "I'm going to take all the hearts"?

Actually the answer to that is in the next section: L68B1: "...a claim of some number of tricks is a concession of the remainder, if any." But this is poor writing.

Having said that, "run the hearts" should be exterminated with extreme prejudice. Because it causes these problems, and it refers to a trick "other than the one currently in progress", and so *looks like* a claim.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#6 User is online   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,210
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-May-29, 15:53

Interesting, I'd say "run the hearts" (any suit) is commonly used in North America and here in NZ and is understood and accepted as run the suit, top down. Although it is not stated like this in the laws, the SBs could have some fun with this.

In NA, "play a club", "a club" or simply "club" or "play" (following suit) is frequently used when designating a card from dummy. I ran afoul of some opponents here who thought it allowed dummy to designate the card. Fortunately, the director read from the law book 46 B.2 . "If declarer designates a suit but not a rank he is deemed to have called the lowest card of the suit indicated."

I believe it's a sign of an experienced player to use "heart", those designating both suit and denomination are seen as wasting time.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
0

#7 User is offline   shyams 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,379
  • Joined: 2009-August-02
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2021-May-29, 16:24

It's been many years since I played bridge in the club. My usual practice was to use the words "small", "top", "ruff", "low", "club", "diamond", "heart", "spade" when the lead is not in dummy. My usual practice was to designate in full when leading from dummy OR when I wanted a specific card to be played from dummy.

The meanings of each of those words was incontrovertible: "small" or "low" was to follow suit with the lowest available card, "top" was to follow sit with the highest available card, "ruff" was to use the lowest available trump, and any suit designation was to discard the lowest card in that suit (obviously when dummy is void in led suit). I believe that the EBU rules (EBU Blue Book?) permit such designations and specify their meaning (thus eliminating disputes on meaning).

The advantage is that adjacent tables don't hear the full designations of cards and consequently have a lower chance of unintentionally overhearing UI.

BTW, pran has addressed the question in the OP. Although I too would not use such a phrase, I know that declarer can ask dummy to stop and can change track midway through the "run the suit" procedure.
0

#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,157
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2021-May-29, 17:42

I seem to remember a WBFLC minute to the effect that "run the <suit>" is deprecated (but apparently not illegal on its face). However, in a quick run through my files I did not find that minute. Perhaps someone else can.

I do agree with Sven's assessment. Not a claim, declarer can stop the run at any time. But I will say that one cannot go wrong by following correct procedure as put forth in Law 46A: "declarer should clearly state both the suit and the rank of the desired card". I note that the use of "should" in this law means that failure to do it is an infraction of law, subject to procedural penalty, though one would rarely be given.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#9 User is offline   shyams 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,379
  • Joined: 2009-August-02
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2021-May-29, 18:08

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-May-29, 17:42, said:

I seem to remember a WBFLC minute to the effect that "run the <suit>" is deprecated (but apparently not illegal on its face). However, in a quick run through my files I did not find that minute. Perhaps someone else can.

I am not sure the below precisely addresses your requirement.

The EBU White Book has this clarification -- link (https://www.ebu.co.u...-2019-final.pdf), page no. 131. I do not know whether this was based off a WBFLC minute or was a decision made independently by the committee for specific application within the EBU.
0

#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,157
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2021-May-29, 20:25

View Postshyams, on 2021-May-29, 18:08, said:

I am not sure the below precisely addresses your requirement.

The EBU White Book has this clarification -- link (https://www.ebu.co.u...-2019-final.pdf), page no. 131. I do not know whether this was based off a WBFLC minute or was a decision made independently by the committee for specific application within the EBU.

Close enough, thanks. The italics in your reference are a direct quote of the WBFLC minute from their meeting in Bermuda, January 12, 2000. That's what the stuff in square brackets is — a reference to the minute. The regular text below that is the EBU's clarification.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#11 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,157
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2021-May-29, 20:30

Jilly, Law 46A describes the correct procedure. Law 46B is basically a list of things players commonly do, and how such "incomplete or invalid" designations should be interpreted. Two things. The existence of Law 46B does not mean that Law 46A isn't the only correct way to designate a card from dummy — it is. And note that the instruction "run the <suit>" is not in Law 46B at all.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#12 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,387
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-May-30, 05:30

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-May-29, 20:30, said:

Jilly, Law 46A describes the correct procedure. Law 46B is basically a list of things players commonly do, and how such "incomplete or invalid" designations should be interpreted. Two things. The existence of Law 46B does not mean that Law 46A isn't the only correct way to designate a card from dummy — it is.

This is of course the worst way to go about writing a law: mandating a tedious and UI vulnerable method and then making a half-hearted attempt at regulating alternative methods. No surprise that players end up thinking that the laws are not to be taken seriously.
0

#13 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,387
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-May-30, 05:45

Having said that, this very poor law never seems to lead to problems in Italy. People usually just name suit, which is intended as lowest card. If they want the top card or a specific intermediate, they use rank and suit (in that order). No other instructions are common although a few will say 'ruff', which is frowned on. All in all it's a workable set of rules and certainly better than either " always suit+ rank" or "effectively anything goes".
0

#14 User is offline   axman 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 739
  • Joined: 2009-July-29
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-May-30, 06:50

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-29, 15:53, said:

Interesting, I'd say "run the hearts" (any suit) is commonly used in North America and here in NZ and is understood and accepted as run the suit, top down. Although it is not stated like this in the laws, the SBs could have some fun with this.

In NA, "play a club", "a club" or simply "club" or "play" (following suit) is frequently used when designating a card from dummy. I ran afoul of some opponents here who thought it allowed dummy to designate the card. Fortunately, the director read from the law book 46 B.2 . "If declarer designates a suit but not a rank he is deemed to have called the lowest card of the suit indicated."

I believe it's a sign of an experienced player to use "heart", those designating both suit and denomination are seen as wasting time.

A sign of an experienced player is that he names clearly suit and rank when designating cards; which is a way of saying that he conforms to the law.
0

#15 User is offline   shyams 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,379
  • Joined: 2009-August-02
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2021-May-30, 07:11

View Postaxman, on 2021-May-30, 06:50, said:

A sign of an experienced player is that he names clearly suit and rank when designating cards; which is a way of saying that he conforms to the law.

There are numerous WBF vugraph videos available on YouTube, many uploaded by Traian Chira. The table talk is often clearly captured by audio.

These are the most prestigious tournaments in the world. One can confidently say these players qualify as "experienced".

Want to guess how often they clearly name the suit and rank when designating cards?
2

#16 User is online   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,210
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Currently in New Zealand
  • Interests:Bridge, boogie boarding, hiking

Posted 2021-May-30, 08:17

View Postaxman, on 2021-May-30, 06:50, said:

A sign of an experienced player is that he names clearly suit and rank when designating cards; which is a way of saying that he conforms to the law.

I so rarely see this, it is by far the norm to use abbreviations, or even a nod of the head.
I am not suggesting "experienced" is good or within the laws, but it is the approach most experienced players take.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
1

#17 User is online   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,294
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2021-May-30, 10:06

Only my general comment:
I do indeed wonder how many 'secretary birds' do realize the full consequence from the following clause within.

INTRODUCTION TO THE 2017 LAWS OF DUPLICATE BRIDGE said:

The purpose of the Laws remains unchanged. They are designed to define correct procedure and to provide an adequate remedy for when something goes wrong.
They are designed not to punish irregularities but rather to rectify situations where non-offenders may otherwise be damaged.
Players should be ready to accept graciously any rectification, penalty, or ruling.

Do most serious bridge players really consider punishment for formal irregularities more important than using common sense when there is no real damage?
1

#18 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,387
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-May-30, 12:25

View Postpran, on 2021-May-30, 10:06, said:

Do most serious bridge players really consider punishment for formal irregularities more important than using common sense when there is no real damage?


No, of course not.
But I'm equally sure they are not happy leaving things up to common sense when the laws establish a clear procedure, and even less happy knowing that there are laws which are not even intended to be enforced.
0

#19 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,157
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2021-May-30, 12:50

View Postpescetom, on 2021-May-30, 05:30, said:

This is of course the worst way to go about writing a law: mandating a tedious and UI vulnerable method and then making a half-hearted attempt at regulating alternative methods. No surprise that players end up thinking that the laws are not to be taken seriously.

Personally, I don't see how complying with 46A is tedious, though I can see some people arguing that it is. As for UI vulnerable, I don't see that at all. And 46B doesn't regulate alternative methods. The only legal method is in 46A. 46B tells the director how to deal with (some) deviations from the correct procedure.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#20 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,387
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-May-30, 15:04

View Postblackshoe, on 2021-May-30, 12:50, said:

Personally, I don't see how complying with 46A is tedious, though I can see some people arguing that it is. As for UI vulnerable, I don't see that at all. And 46B doesn't regulate alternative methods. The only legal method is in 46A. 46B tells the director how to deal with (some) deviations from the correct procedure.


I do find it tedious to have to look for the rank of the lowest remaining card in a suit when I know that the actual rank makes no difference, although I concede that others may not. I am indifferent as an opponent if declarer names the rank when we both know it makes no difference, although I have noticed that many others find this irritating.

'UI vulnerable' has already been explained by shyams here and I think he has a point.

Having said that, I could live with rank + suit, so long as the law said that dummy may not play a card until both have been specified and stopped there.

46B may not regulate alternative methods, but it does designate exceptions that may apply, which in itself implies that dummy should accept instructions that are illegal under 46A. The things it tells director are also rather strange. They do not cover relatively common exceptions such as "ruff" or "continue" or "run the suit", as discussed in this thread. B3b (only rank, no logical suit) and B4 (not in dummy) both give perverse indications to director and B1b ('win') seems to invite/oblige dummy to memorise play and make a decision.
0

Share this topic:


  • 4 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users