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Zenith Daylong Robots Are they different?

#1 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-May-17, 12:55

I don't play the above tournament all the time so I might be completely wrong here.

My hunch is that the advanced Robots on Zenith Daylong have a slightly different take on bidding and cardplay --- especially bidding.

a. Have any of the other frequent players noticed anything unusual about these bots?
b. Can anyone from BBO shed light on this? Perhaps their sampling size is different even if the code isn't?

Any inputs appreciated.
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#2 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2021-May-18, 01:48

View Postshyams, on 2021-May-17, 12:55, said:

I don't play the above tournament all the time so I might be completely wrong here.

My hunch is that the advanced Robots on Zenith Daylong have a slightly different take on bidding and cardplay --- especially bidding.

a. Have any of the other frequent players noticed anything unusual about these bots?
b. Can anyone from BBO shed light on this? Perhaps their sampling size is different even if the code isn't?

Any inputs appreciated.


They are advanced robots. In free games and robot subs we use basic robots.

All daylongs have same robots, adv for the pay games, basic for the free ones. So whatever the Zenith uses will be identical in say ACBL Daylongs.

Daylong and challenge robots also run on different machines than robots that are rented, but the program is the same.

I can't think of other differences.

What have you noticed different?

#3 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-May-18, 07:22

View Postdiana_eva, on 2021-May-18, 01:48, said:

They are advanced robots. In free games and robot subs we use basic robots.

All daylongs have same robots, adv for the pay games, basic for the free ones. So whatever the Zenith uses will be identical in say ACBL Daylongs.

Daylong and challenge robots also run on different machines than robots that are rented, but the program is the same.

I can't think of other differences.

What have you noticed different?


Thank you, Diana.

I don't have any concrete examples to quote; I will aim to make a note of anything going forward.
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#4 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-May-25, 02:49

Here is an example from yesterday's Zenith tournament:
https://tinyurl.com/yfaytcoy

Let us ignore my (South's) silly jump to 4. While it may affect the choice of opening leads, there should be no impact once the South hand is exposed as dummy.

After the first 8 tricks have been played, the situation is (North to lead):


When I led the 7 from the North hand, East GIB knows the exact layout in both minors and can guess the possible layouts in hearts. Here, East chose to discard the Q --- which, IMO, is completely illogical. I also don't recall encountering such an error in other adv. robot tournaments (e.g. Robot Rebate 55%)

The robot's play can be right (in the sense of equivalent to any red suit discard) only if its sampling set shows all hands where North holds AQxx or AJxx --- which double dummy assures 13 tricks. In all other situations, the club discard is the only way to allow declarer to score a 3rd overtrick.

This foolish discard enabled me to score 76% on the board instead of the 42% that I deserved for my bidding atrocity.
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#5 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2021-May-25, 04:17

View Postshyams, on 2021-May-25, 02:49, said:

Here is an example from yesterday's Zenith tournament:
https://tinyurl.com/yfaytcoy

Let us ignore my (South's) silly jump to 4. While it may affect the choice of opening leads, there should be no impact once the South hand is exposed as dummy.

After the first 8 tricks have been played, the situation is (North to lead):


When I led the 7 from the North hand, East GIB knows the exact layout in both minors and can guess the possible layouts in hearts. Here, East chose to discard the Q --- which, IMO, is completely illogical. I also don't recall encountering such an error in other adv. robot tournaments (e.g. Robot Rebate 55%)

The robot's play can be right (in the sense of equivalent to any red suit discard) only if its sampling set shows all hands where North holds AQxx or AJxx --- which double dummy assures 13 tricks. In all other situations, the club discard is the only way to allow declarer to score a 3rd overtrick.

This foolish discard enabled me to score 76% on the board instead of the 42% that I deserved for my bidding atrocity.


Interesting.

Same hand replayed with adv robots at a teaching table: https://tinyurl.com/yh2re57k

We'll check what was different for the daylong robots.

#6 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-May-25, 05:58

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-May-25, 03:26, said:

After the K is led 12 tricks are cold.
In the endgame that you show it makes no difference what is discarded. East knows the club holding and the cards are all the same as far as it's concerned.

Or are you making a different point?


Yes, I am. The discard of the club Queen at that critical juncture allows me to squeeze West and score the 13th trick. 4 +2 scored 42%, 4+3 scored 76%
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#7 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-May-25, 16:26

View Postshyams, on 2021-May-25, 02:49, said:

This foolish discard enabled me to score 76% on the board instead of the 42% that I deserved for my bidding atrocity.


Good defense by GIB East to keep the 2 long diamonds to avoid the potential endplays and maintain safe exit cards. Declarer was afraid to try an endplay which shows what a good strategy it was.
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#8 User is offline   eamongall 

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Posted 2021-May-27, 04:10

Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.19041.985]
© Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

C:\Users\eamon>cd ,,
C:\Users\eamon

C:\Users\eamon>cd ..

C:\Users>cd ..

C:\>cd gib

C:\gib>bridge -scULT 8000
GIB Version 6.1.3, 1/4/03

Enter S hand: 853.k52.ak63.t92
Enter dealer:
C:\gib>bridge -scULINST 8000
GIB Version 6.1.3, 1/4/03

Enter S hand: 853.k52.ak63.t92
Enter N hand: akq762.a963.qj9.
Enter dealer: s
Enter vul (none, N/S, E/W, both): both
dealt 250 hands at time -0.00
book bid [rule 10103] P is 91% to continue auction; returning it
I bid P (0.02 sec)
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
simulation disallowed; returning book bid
rule 10349 (87)
I bid 1S (0.01 sec)
That bid shows: Major suit opening -- 5+ S; 21- HCP; 12-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
simulation disallowed; returning book bid
rule 10253 (88)
I bid 2S (0.01 sec)
That bid shows: Simple raise -- 3+ S; 7-10 points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 187 hands at time 0.19
Distributional values suggest new action (4C vs 4S); simulation indicated.
book bid [rule 11602] 4C, considering 2N 4C 4S
prognosticate at time 0.20
complete at time 0.60; size 26

analyzed 0 deals (26 current) at 0.69 sec
I bid 4C (0.69 sec)
That bid shows: !Splinter -- 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
dealt 93 hands at time 0.25
Distributional values suggest new action (4H vs 4S); simulation indicated.
book bid [rule 1374] 4H, considering 4H 4S 5S
prognosticate at time 0.26
complete at time 0.40; size 13

analyzed 13 deals (13 current) at 0.63 sec
4H: 3.27 (prog 708.23 par 925.85)
4S: 1.38 (prog 659.23 par 925.85)
5S: -4.15 (prog 339.62 par 830.46)
I bid 4H (0.63 sec)
That bid shows: 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 60 hands at time 95.19
redealt 187 hands at time 95.29
book bid 0% chance of continuing auction
book bid [rule 243] 4S, considering 4S 5C
prognosticate at time 95.34
complete at time 95.42; size 26

analyzed 75 deals (75 current) at 95.76 sec
4S: 8.95 (prog 635.20 par 779.92)
5C: -8.45 (prog -3.57 par 531.92)
I bid 4S (95.76 sec)
That bid shows: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: !
Enter bid for N: !
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 66 hands at time 95.02
redealt 187 hands at time 95.13
book bid 0% chance of continuing auction
book bid [rule 243] 4S, considering 4S 5C
prognosticate at time 95.17
complete at time 95.17; size 26

analyzed 75 deals (75 current) at 95.49 sec
4S: 7.53 (prog 648.00 par 821.61)
5C: -7.03 (prog 100.93 par 606.68)
I bid 4S (95.49 sec)
That bid shows: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: !
Enter bid for N: !
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 57 hands at time 92.55
redealt 187 hands at time 92.64
book bid 0% chance of continuing auction
book bid [rule 243] 4S, considering 4S 5C
prognosticate at time 92.68
complete at time 92.68; size 26

analyzed 75 deals (75 current) at 92.94 sec
4S: 8.38 (prog 597.07 par 753.20)
5C: -7.88 (prog 12.25 par 571.33)
I bid 4S (92.95 sec)
That bid shows: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: ?
P.P.1S.P.2S.P.4C.P.4H.P.4S
South: 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
West: 11- HCP; 12- points
North: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
East: 16- points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
dealt 93 hands at time 0.32
book bid 0% chance of continuing auction
book bid [rule 129] P, considering P 4N 5D 5S
prognosticate at time 0.33
complete at time 0.86; size 13

analyzed 83 deals (83 current) at 2.60 sec
P: 5.15 (prog 652.05 par 648.43)
5S: 4.57 (prog 575.60 par 907.07)
5D: 3.71 (prog 567.54 par 907.07)
4N: -12.94 (prog -821.72 par -74.70)
I bid P (2.60 sec)
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
Enter bid for W:
C:\gib>bridge -scANSI
GIB Version 6.1.3, 1/4/03

Enter S hand: 853.k52.ak63.t92
Enter N hand: akq762.a963.qj9.
Enter dealer: s
Enter vul (none, N/S, E/W, both): both
dealt 250 hands at time 0.01
book bid [rule 10103] P, considering P 1C-7N
prognosticate at time 0.01
complete at time 25.92; size 35

analyzed 35 deals (35 current) at 31.03 sec
P: 12.79 (prog -17.42 par -79.68)
1D: 11.47 (prog -74.09 par -75.71)
1C: 9.91 (prog -247.43 par -75.71)
2D: 9.84 (prog -258.00 par -149.14)
1N: 9.00 (prog -261.40 par -250.14)
1S: 8.79 (prog -335.60 par -104.86)
1H: 8.43 (prog -364.94 par -84.29)
3D: 6.76 (prog -472.20 par -326.00)
2S: 6.44 (prog -514.20 par -206.57)
2C: 4.54 (prog -740.91 par -138.57)
I bid P (31.04 sec)
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
simulation disallowed; returning book bid
rule 10349 (87)
I bid 1S (0.01 sec)
That bid shows: Major suit opening -- 5+ S; 21- HCP; 12-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
simulation disallowed; returning book bid
rule 10253 (88)
I bid 2S (0.02 sec)
That bid shows: Simple raise -- 3+ S; 7-10 points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 187 hands at time 0.22
book bid [rule 11602] 4C, considering P 2N-7N
prognosticate at time 0.22
complete at time 3.35; size 26

analyzed 88 deals (88 current) at 6.99 sec
4C: 7.75 (prog 566.02 par 676.16)
2N: 7.25 (prog 566.02 par 695.48)
3D: 7.25 (prog 566.02 par 694.11)
3H: 7.25 (prog 566.02 par 694.11)
4S: 7.13 (prog 566.02 par 652.30)
3S: 7.13 (prog 557.61 par 691.84)
3C: 7.04 (prog 549.89 par 694.11)
4D: 7.03 (prog 547.39 par 676.16)
4H: 6.81 (prog 528.75 par 676.16)
3N: 5.73 (prog 462.05 par 664.80)
I bid 4C (7.00 sec)
That bid shows: !Splinter -- 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
dealt 93 hands at time 0.27
book bid [rule 1374] 4H, considering P 4D-7N
prognosticate at time 0.28
complete at time 1.72; size 13

analyzed 13 deals (13 current) at 2.10 sec
4H: 8.87 (prog 708.23 par 927.38)
4D: 8.37 (prog 708.23 par 927.38)
4S: 7.57 (prog 659.23 par 927.38)
5C: 7.17 (prog 582.08 par 832.00)
5D: 7.17 (prog 582.08 par 832.00)
5H: 5.57 (prog 486.92 par 832.00)
5S: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 801.23)
6C: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 531.23)
6H: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 531.23)
6S: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 362.00)
I bid 4H (2.10 sec)
That bid shows: 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 141 hands at time 26.62
redealt 187 hands at time 26.72
book bid [rule 243] 4S, considering P 4S-7N
prognosticate at time 26.72
complete at time 27.99; size 26

analyzed 26 deals (26 current) at 28.38 sec
4S: 9.88 (prog 647.69 par 810.88)
P: 8.15 (prog 530.00 par 514.62)
5S: 6.63 (prog 363.85 par 556.65)
4N: 3.99 (prog 197.88 par 716.27)
5H: 3.99 (prog 197.88 par 618.19)
5D: 2.32 (prog 80.08 par 618.19)
5C: 1.87 (prog 47.38 par 618.19)
5N: 1.87 (prog 47.38 par 260.50)
6C: 1.87 (prog 47.38 par 316.65)
6D: 1.87 (prog 47.38 par 316.65)
I bid 4S (28.39 sec)
That bid shows: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
dealt 93 hands at time 0.41
book bid [rule 129] P, considering P 4N-7N
prognosticate at time 0.41
complete at time 1.71; size 13

analyzed 13 deals (13 current) at 2.02 sec
P: 7.81 (prog 663.85 par 663.85)
5C: 7.38 (prog 649.77 par 960.69)
5D: 7.38 (prog 649.77 par 960.69)
5S: 6.93 (prog 593.77 par 945.31)
6C: 6.93 (prog 593.77 par 710.69)
6D: 6.93 (prog 593.77 par 710.69)
6H: 6.93 (prog 593.77 par 710.69)
6S: 6.93 (prog 593.77 par 595.31)
5H: 6.72 (prog 600.77 par 960.69)
7C: -5.64 (prog -361.54 par 0.00)
I bid P (2.03 sec)
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
Enter bid for W:
C:\gib>bridge -scANSIT 8000
GIB Version 6.1.3, 1/4/03

Enter S hand: 853.k52.ak63
Enter S hand: 853.k52.ak63.t92
Enter N hand: akq762.a963.qj9.
Enter dealer: s
Enter vul (none, N/S, E/W, both): both
dealt 250 hands at time -0.00
book bid [rule 10103] P, considering P 1C-7N
prognosticate at time -0.00
complete at time 26.12; size 35

analyzed 35 deals (35 current) at 31.20 sec
P: 12.79 (prog -17.42 par -79.68)
1D: 11.47 (prog -74.09 par -75.71)
1C: 9.91 (prog -247.43 par -75.71)
2D: 9.84 (prog -258.00 par -149.14)
1N: 9.00 (prog -261.40 par -250.14)
1S: 8.79 (prog -335.60 par -104.86)
1H: 8.43 (prog -364.94 par -84.29)
3D: 6.76 (prog -472.20 par -326.00)
2S: 6.44 (prog -514.20 par -206.57)
2C: 4.54 (prog -740.91 par -138.57)
I bid P (31.20 sec)
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
simulation disallowed; returning book bid
rule 10349 (87)
I bid 1S (0.01 sec)
That bid shows: Major suit opening -- 5+ S; 21- HCP; 12-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
simulation disallowed; returning book bid
rule 10253 (88)
I bid 2S (0.01 sec)
That bid shows: Simple raise -- 3+ S; 7-10 points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 187 hands at time 0.20
book bid [rule 11602] 4C, considering P 2N-7N
prognosticate at time 0.20
complete at time 3.29; size 26

analyzed 88 deals (88 current) at 6.94 sec
4C: 7.75 (prog 566.02 par 676.16)
2N: 7.25 (prog 566.02 par 695.48)
3D: 7.25 (prog 566.02 par 694.11)
3H: 7.25 (prog 566.02 par 694.11)
4S: 7.13 (prog 566.02 par 652.30)
3S: 7.13 (prog 557.61 par 691.84)
3C: 7.04 (prog 549.89 par 694.11)
4D: 7.03 (prog 547.39 par 676.16)
4H: 6.81 (prog 528.75 par 676.16)
3N: 5.73 (prog 462.05 par 664.80)
I bid 4C (6.95 sec)
That bid shows: !Splinter -- 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
dealt 93 hands at time 0.27
book bid [rule 1374] 4H, considering P 4D-7N
prognosticate at time 0.27
complete at time 1.72; size 13

analyzed 13 deals (13 current) at 2.09 sec
4H: 8.87 (prog 708.23 par 927.38)
4D: 8.37 (prog 708.23 par 927.38)
4S: 7.57 (prog 659.23 par 927.38)
5C: 7.17 (prog 582.08 par 832.00)
5D: 7.17 (prog 582.08 par 832.00)
5H: 5.57 (prog 486.92 par 832.00)
5S: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 801.23)
6C: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 531.23)
6H: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 531.23)
6S: 4.11 (prog 339.62 par 362.00)
I bid 4H (2.11 sec)
That bid shows: 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
dealt 141 hands at time 101.63
redealt 187 hands at time 101.73
book bid [rule 243] 4S, considering P 4S-7N
prognosticate at time 101.73
complete at time 103.26; size 26

analyzed 26 deals (26 current) at 103.76 sec
4S: 9.42 (prog 648.85 par 836.54)
P: 7.67 (prog 528.85 par 513.46)
5S: 6.17 (prog 365.00 par 582.31)
4N: 3.90 (prog 223.54 par 741.92)
5H: 3.90 (prog 223.54 par 643.85)
5D: 2.69 (prog 138.42 par 643.85)
5C: 2.23 (prog 105.73 par 643.85)
5N: 2.23 (prog 105.73 par 318.85)
6C: 2.23 (prog 105.73 par 367.31)
6D: 2.23 (prog 105.73 par 367.31)
I bid 4S (103.77 sec)
That bid shows: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
Enter bid for E: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 16- points
dealt 93 hands at time 0.40
book bid [rule 129] P, considering P 4N-7N
prognosticate at time 0.40
complete at time 1.69; size 13

analyzed 13 deals (13 current) at 1.98 sec
P: 8.07 (prog 663.85 par 663.85)
5S: 7.05 (prog 593.77 par 944.54)
6C: 7.05 (prog 593.77 par 709.92)
6D: 7.05 (prog 593.77 par 709.92)
6H: 7.05 (prog 593.77 par 709.92)
6S: 7.05 (prog 593.77 par 594.54)
5C: 6.98 (prog 600.77 par 959.92)
5D: 6.98 (prog 600.77 par 959.92)
5H: 6.98 (prog 600.77 par 959.92)
7C: -5.45 (prog -361.54 par 0.00)
I bid P (1.98 sec)
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
Enter bid for W: ?
P.P.1S.P.2S.P.4C.P.4H.P.4S.P.P
South: 3+ H; 3+ S; 2-11 8421 HCP in H; 9-10 points
West: 11- HCP; 12- points
North: 1- C; 5+ S; 21- HCP; 19-22 points
East: 16- points
Enter bid for W: p
That bid shows: No suitable call -- 11- HCP; 12- points
P.P.1S.P.2S.P.4C.P.4H.P.4S.P.P.P
Enter play for E: Enter play for E:

I tried this hand on a few settings of my old DOS GIB program that I have tinkered with for many years ...I am not getting past 4S but I am getting some indication that GIB is considering a move forward
All output of my settings is posted above with no edits

This DOS program comes with the commercial GIB which Matt Ginsberg gave me for free back in the day or last century
There is also a crippled version which came along with the old Windows client BBO but it did not have all the switches


Thanks
Eamon Galligan ...on BBO eamongall
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#9 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2021-May-28, 08:01

OK, here is another example - a seemingly innocuous one. I post it here because something is not right about West's first action. Board 5 from my set of yesterday (link here).

West holds -- 76 AKQ9743 A542. North as dealer opens 1, partner passes, South raises to 2. What should West do?

I am relying on my hunch and my past experience with advanced Robots to say that an advanced robot would bid 3. The Zenith robot chose to double with the West hand!

I found it so strange that I was planning to post here immediately (i.e. before I played Board 6) but then I decided to wait for everyone to finish.
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