Asserting fit and slam-suitability after 2N-transfer
#1
Posted 2020-February-13, 08:39
The downside is offering the chance of a lead-director double (or lack thereof) over 3♠; in exchange, we get to right-side 4♠ when that's the right contract, and can also distinguish between 5♥4m (directly bids the minor over 3♥) and 5♥5m (goes through 3♠* first) (if opener has no fit) -- so overall we quite like this.
However, here in France, it seems extremely common, including among good players, to instead play fitted transfer acceptances, i.e. 2N-3♦; 3♥ = fit, 3N = no fit. You lose the possibility to signoff in 3♥ with weak hands, but instead get a full cuebidding level between 3♥ and 4♥ on slam hands.
In our system, over 3♠*, opener could also choose to cue just to cater for the possibility that responder is slammish (so 4m = minor cue, the spade cue is not available but such is life), but that seems just like gratuitously leaking info to the opps most of the time. Always bidding 4♣ with a fit only leaves one intermediate non-signoff (4♦) to responder so that doesn't seem to buy much either. Any thoughts on the best way to use the half-level (4♣, 4♦, 4♥) that we have available with fitted hands after 2N-3♦; 3♥-3♠*?
#2
Posted 2020-February-13, 08:48
We play new suit = Hxx♥/HHxxx in the suit bid H=AKQ, 3N/4♥ as min/max with 4♥ (you can argue which way round to play these) which gets rid of a lot of the fit hands straight up.
#3
Posted 2020-February-13, 10:37
We actually play 2N-3♦; 3♠ = 5233 exactly, which helps when responder is 3♠5♥ (transfer followups).
Do you think the wrongsiding of games after a superaccept at 4(M-1) is worth the few (well, I don't have a good intuition of how many) additional slams you get to?
#4
Posted 2020-February-13, 15:49
antonylee, on 2020-February-13, 10:37, said:
We actually play 2N-3♦; 3♠ = 5233 exactly, which helps when responder is 3♠5♥ (transfer followups).
Do you think the wrongsiding of games after a superaccept at 4(M-1) is worth the few (well, I don't have a good intuition of how many) additional slams you get to?
We haven't had an issue with wrongsiding games in this type of auction, although it could happen.
#5
Posted 2020-February-14, 16:54
* base criteria:
With what kind of hand you bid 3♣ and with what kind of hand you bid 3♦
(Muppet discovers any major fit and it is always played by right hand. Obviously it's something about slam possibilities, but I failed to grasp exactly what...)
Could you give some example hands?
#6
Posted 2020-February-15, 04:37
... 3♦: <4♥, <5♠
... ... 3♥: 4♠
... ... 3♠: puppet to 3N -- to play, or slammish 5♠4♥, or others.
... ... 3N: 5♠4♥, NF
... 3♥: 4+♥
... ... 3♠: "do you have 4 or 5♥?" (actually this has problems similar to the originally given auction, do you bid 4♥ with 5 or something else?)
... ... 3N: to play
... 3♠: 5♠
3♦: transfer, possibly 4♠ as well
... 3♥: mostly forced
... ... 3♠: "do you have 2 or 3♥?" -- then over 3N (=2♥): 4m=55, 4♥=5♠5♥, 4♠=4♠5♥ but too strong for 3N.
... ... 3N: 5♥4♠, NF
The general structure can be remembered as "After 3♦ by either player, invert the meanings of 3♠ and 3N" (a trick taught to me by my former partner).
#7
Posted 2020-February-15, 21:21
It's pretty complicated, I need to think a bit. For now, I see an obvious flaw - 4♠ is frequently played by wrong hand. Don't yet see a benefit that would make up for that. An example hand would be useful...
You don't separately mention distributions with 5♥3♠ and 3♥5♠. It seems 5♥3♠ is included in 3♦, but I'm not sure whether is 3♥5♠ included in 3♣ or 3♥...
#8
Posted 2020-February-17, 03:55
(53)Ms either way are handled by transfering to the long major; opener relay-breaks at 3(M+1) with 2M5oM and responder's next bid is a transfer. So e.g. 2N-3♥; 3N! now P=to play, 4♣=♦, 4♦=♥, 4♥=♠, 4♠=♣ (probably it would be best to play e.g. 4♣=♣ and 4♠+ = various ♦ hands, e.g. "♦, responding to a hypothetical 4♥ kickback" but these are exceptionally rare and not really worth the memory load).
#9
Posted 2020-February-17, 04:31
antonylee, on 2020-February-17, 03:55, said:
(53)Ms either way are handled by transfering to the long major; opener relay-breaks at 3(M+1) with 2M5oM and responder's next bid is a transfer. So e.g. 2N-3♥; 3N! now P=to play, 4♣=♦, 4♦=♥, 4♥=♠, 4♠=♣ (probably it would be best to play e.g. 4♣=♣ and 4♠+ = various ♦ hands, e.g. "♦, responding to a hypothetical 4♥ kickback" but these are exceptionally rare and not really worth the memory load).
What do you play 2N-4m as ? we put all the 5-5 majors where you're either to-play or slamgoing into 4♦, if you play texas transfers you can use 4♣. This rightsides many of the 5-5s
#10
Posted 2020-February-20, 03:19
#11
Posted 2020-February-20, 10:32
==
3♣ = ask
... - 3♦ = 4 hearts and/or 3-4 spades
... - ... - 3♥ = asks if 4 spades
... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 4 spades
... - ... - ... - ... - 3N = to play
... - ... - ... - ... - 4m = nat, SI
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = slam try agreeing spades
... - ... - ... - 3N = <4 spades
... - ... - ... - ... - 4m = nat, SI
... - ... - 3♠ = shows 4 hearts, denies 4 spades
... - ... - ... - 3N = <4 hearts
... - ... - ... - ... - 4m = nat, SI
... - ... - ... - others = 4 hearts
... - ... - 3N = 4 hearts, 4 spades, NF
... - ... - 4♣ = 4+ hearts, 4+ spades, SI
... - ... - ... - 4♦ = 3 spades, <4 hearts
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = 5+ spades
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♠ = 4 spades, 5+ hearts
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 4N = 2 hearts, min
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 5N = 2 hearts, max
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - others = 3 hearts
... - ... - ... - 4♥ = 4 hearts, decline slam try
... - ... - ... - 4♠ = 4 spades, decline slam try
... - ... - ... - 4N = 4 spades, accept slam try
... - ... - ... - ... - 5♣ = RKCB
... - ... - ... - others = 4 hearts, accept slam try
... - ... - 4♦ = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts
... - ... - 4♥ = 5+ clubs, 4 diamonds, SI
... - ... - 4♠ = 5+ diamonds, 4 clubs, SI
... - 3♥ = 5 hearts
... - ... - 3♠ = agrees hearts, SI
... - ... - 4m = nat, SI
... - 3♠ = 5 spades
... - ... - 4m = nat, SI
... - ... - 4♥ = slam try agreeing spades
... - 3N = <4 hearts, <3 spades
... - ... - 4♣ = 4+ clubs, SI
... - ... - 4red = puppet to 4M
... - ... - 4♠ = 4+ diamonds, SI
3♦ = 5+ hearts
... - 3♥ = 2-3 hearts
... - ... - 3♠ = cog (3NT/4♥); or 4+ clubs; or strong slam try in hearts
... - ... - ... - 3N = usually 2 hearts
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣ = 4 clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = <4 clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - ... - others agree clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = 5+ clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = strong slam try in hearts
... - ... - ... - 4♣ = 3+ hearts, 4+ clubs
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♦ = puppet to 4♥
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = strong slam try in hearts
... - ... - ... - ... - others show 4+ clubs
... - ... - ... - 4♦ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, accept slam try
... - ... - ... - ... - 4♥ = to play
... - ... - ... - 4♥ = 3+ hearts, <4 clubs, decline slam try
... - ... - 3N = 4 spades, cog
... - ... - 4♣ = 4+ diamonds
... - ... - 4♦ = 5+ spades
... - ... - 4♥ = mild slam try
... - 3♠ = 4-5 hearts
... - ... - 4♦ = puppet to 4♥
... - ... - 3N/4♣/4♥ = control bids
... - 3N = 2 hearts, 5 spades
... - ... - 4♣ = 5+ clubs, SI
... - ... - 4red = puppet to 4M
... - ... - 4♠ = 5+ diamonds, SI
3♥ = 5+ spades
... - 3♠
... - ... - 3N = cog
... - ... - 4m = nat, 4+ suit
... - ... - 4♥ = strong slam try in spades
... - ... - 4♠ = mild slam try
... - 3N = 2 spades, 5 hearts
... - ... - 4♣ = 5+ clubs, SI
... - ... - 4red = puppet to 4M
... - ... - 4♠ = 5+ diamonds, SI
3♠ = 5+ clubs, SI
... - 3N = no club fit
... - ... - 4♣ = 6+ clubs
... - ... - 4♦ = 5+ diamonds, no void
... - ... - 4M = 5+ diamonds, void in M
... - ... - 4N = RKCB for diamonds with spade void
... - others show club fit
3N = to play
4♣ = 6+ diamonds
4red = puppet to 4M
4♠ = Baron range ask
4N = puppet to 5♣
5♣ = puppet to 5♦
#13
Posted 2020-February-21, 18:06
antonylee, on 2020-February-21, 13:05, said:
Glad something in there was useful to you.
I have one more tip for you as well. If you do decide to go with that idea then I would recommend doing the same in your 1NT structure. That makes it much less likely that it will be forgotten.
#14
Posted 2020-February-22, 05:19
I'm not sure things are that easily adaptable for us to 1N openings, though, given that we play a structure based on 1N-2r; 2M-2N* = forcing 5431s which we quite like as well (and is quite common in France).
#15
Posted 2020-February-29, 15:19
1) 2N is balanced in the classical sense of promising either (4333), (4432) or (5332))
and
2)
2N-3♦; ?:
3♥ = 4-S2H (and therefore 4+m3+Om, because of 1))
...3♠ = PUP 3N
...3N = 4S5H, CoG
...4♣+ = hands with 3-S5H4+m or 2533 shape only
3♠(or 3N) = 5233
rest = 3+ H.
Then
2N-3♦; 3♥-?:
(...)
4♣ = slam interest, 5+H3+D3+C
...4♦+ = Structure
4♦+ = slam interest, 3-S5+H4+m2-Om, Structure
where Structure is given by
4♦ = either 4 C or (5+ C and even KC(♣))
...4♥ = 3 C
......4♠ = 5+ C, even KC(♣)
.........4N = ♣Q ask
.........(...)
......4N = to play
......5♣(by 3♦ bidder) = 6+H4C, even KC(♥)
.........4♦ = ♥Q ask
.........(...)
......5♦(by 3♦ bidder) = 6+H4C, odd KC(♥), no ♥Q
......5♥(by 3♦ bidder) = 6+H4C, odd KC(♥), ♥Q
...4♠ = 4+ C, even KC(♣)
......4N = ♣Q ask
......(...)
...4N = 4+ C, odd KC(♣), no ♣ Q
...5♣ = 4+ C, odd KC(♣), TQ
4♥ = either 5-H4D or (5+ D and even KC(♦))
...4♠ = 3 D
......4N = to play
......5♣ = 5+ D, even KC(♦), no ♦Q
......5♦ = 5+ D, even KC(♦), ♦Q
......(...)
...4N = 4+ D, even KC(♦)
......5♣ = ♦Q ask
......(...)
...5♣ = 4+ D, odd KC(♦), no ♦Q
...5♦ = 4+ D, odd KC(♦), ♦Q
4♠ = 5+ C, odd KC(♣)
...4N = ♣Q ask
...(...)
4N = 5+ D, odd KC(♦)
...5♣ = ♦Q ask
...(...)
5♣(by 3♦ bidder) = 6+H4D, even KC(♥)
...5♦ = ♥Q ask
...(...)
5♦(by 3♦ bidder) = 6+H4D, odd KC(♥), no ♥Q
5♥(by 3♦ bidder) = 6+H4D, odd KC(♥), ♥Q,
might be a way to exchange, at a reasonably safe level, almost all relevant inforrmation about minor suit lengths and key cards, in the case where Opener is 4-S2H and Responder either 3-S5H4+m or 2533.
Obviously, Structure can be generalised to the case where Opener is 2M4-OM and Responder either 5+M3-OM4+m or 5M233.
---
Fatal flaws anywhere?
Added, starting 17 April 2021:
#16
Posted 2020-July-02, 16:47
You lose the ability to play 3M with a fit which is no great loss when 2NT shows at least 20 or so.
Mats Nilsland in his recent book (available for free as pdf from his site AFAIK) even recommends breaking the transfer to 3♠ without a fit.