[nekthen]

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5 card major strong no trump

Dealer North All NV

This post has been edited by nekthen: 2020-May-17, 07:05

[hrothgar]

nekthen, on 2020-May-17, 06:13, said:

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5 card major strong no trump

Opening at the one level seems obvious unless you are playing Roth Stone or some such

I would open 1 Heart

[P_Marlowe]

Position? I guess we are green.

Anyway, in 1st or 2nd I go with pass.
If I cant pass, I go with 1C.

[DavidKok]

1♥ for me, but only because I have discussed this with my partner. The reasoning:

• pass is right out in my opinion. Somebody is holding the spades, and it's not me. The auction is likely to become very lively very soon, and I need all the time possible to describe my hand. So get in now, you won't get many more chances.
  
• 1♣ is the normal bid with a 6/5 hand, intending to bid hearts and then rebid them on the third round to show this shape. However (again due to missing the spades), I fear that third round bid might very well need to be 5♥, and you're simply not strong enough for something like that (in fact, even some conventional 4NT, demanding partner choose between your suits, might be too late). I really want to describe this weakish hand before somebody bids 4♠, and involve my partner in the decision to bid on. If my hand was about an ace stronger I would take this risk though, and open 1♣.
  
• 1♥ is all that is left. It is an unpleasant bid to make, and I am planning on bidding clubs (perhaps with a jump), and if possible rebidding them again to show 5/5 shape. Because of the general weakness of my hand I predict I won't get the chance to inform partner about my sixth club, and I'm cutting my losses right on the first round of the auction. It is a tragedy that my clubs are so much better than my hearts (so I'm not just going to lie about my shape, but also about the general placement of my points), but I feel I can live with it if partner plays a heart towards my KTxxx. Without partnership agreements I think there is much to be said for 'misleading' partner in the other direction, opening 1♣ intending to introduce the hearts and then rebidding clubs on the third round, presenting this hand as a 4/6.

Some asides: if the 2 of hearts instead was the ace, or if the hearts and spades are flipped, I would open 1♣. This time there is no problem: if I have the spades I simply take out their 4♥ with 4♠, and if I have the strong hand (between 4.5 and 3 losers. With 2.5 and fewer we open strong 2♣) I can bid 4NT on most auctions to show a wild two-suiter.

[LBengtsson]

Open 3♣vul/non vul. No defense. Ops will have ♠, if you and p have ♥. pass and open at one level are marginal. it is a bum hand to rebid. 3♣ may not be good bid but some time I like give the ops guess here.

[Cyberyeti]

I open 1♣, swap the honours in the two suits I'd be more inclined to open 1♥.

[helene_t]

I once had a Polish partner who wanted us to play sound Polish 2-openings so you can open this kind of hands without getting in troubles opposite a misfitting 12-count.

Without that agreement, I would open at the 1-level. I have a mild preference for 1♣, I think, but obviously either could work or not.

Playing an Acol or Goren style, maybe 1♥ is a bit less attractive as you have to rebid a non-forcing 2♥ over a 2♦ response. But that's of course a rather marginal issue. So basically the dilemma is the same in every system that has a (semi)natural 1♣ opening.

[ahydra]

Tough one.

If I open 1H, I'm well-placed unless I hear 2D, in which case I have to rebid my hearts (but that's fairly typical, would be the same even if I was 5-5). The risk is then that partner leaves me in 2H when we make four, but he'll only do that with an absolute minimum 2D response, and given my lack of aces and the fact partner's diamond honours are likely to be useless, this isn't much of a risk.

If I open 1C then I am nowhere near good enough to reverse into 2H over a 1S response - although the clubs are more than good enough to rebid, I haven't shown that I have even one heart, let alone five! If partner responds 1D, I could get the shape across nicely after something like 1C-1D; 1H-something; 2H.

Mainly we should be looking to get to 4H. Particularly if playing Walsh, the risk of it going 1C-1S and it becoming too hard to find 4H means that - I think - opening 1H offers the best chance of that. It certainly allows partner to get into the right mindset much easier if he holds three hearts.

ahydra

[sfi]

helene_t, on 2020-May-17, 17:07, said:

I once had a Polish partner who wanted us to play sound Polish 2-openings so you can open this kind of hands without getting in troubles opposite a misfitting 12-count.

2♦ Wilkosz FTW .

[smerriman]

This is awful. I've changed my vote about 4 times and I still have no idea what to do..

If partner has 2 hearts, opening 1♥ will likely turn into a disaster, because even though I can keep bidding clubs over all of the spade / diamond bids that will surely follow, partner is almost surely going to preference me back to a 5-2 heart fit which I don't want to be in.

If partner has 3 hearts, opening 1♣ will likely never result in a heart contract; my hearts and general hand don't seem good enough to keep reversing into hearts over whatever level of spades the bidding is at next time round.

On the other hand, even if partner does have hearts we're likely to be outbid. So currently I think I'm going to ignore the hearts and treat this as a one suited club hand. Given that, and the fact my clubs are so much better, maybe 3♣ is worth considering after all..

[DavidKok]

A lot of people seem to be worried about partner bidding 2♦ over 1♥, or 1♠ over 1♣. But there are two more players who get to bid before it is your turn again, and I'm much more worried about them! We have only 10 points and great shape, I expect the opponents to have pretty similar hands. If it goes 1♥-(Pass)-2♦-(Pass)-2♥-(Pass)-? I am completely satisfied - we have bid systematically and my partner should be able to make a clever bid. I'm much more afraid of something like 1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(3♣*)-3♥-(4♠)-Pass-(Pass)-? and now it is your move.

[apollo1201]

I bid 1C.

If partner turns out with S, I’ll bid H twice and partner knows I can be a little light. Well, not that much usually, but my C are so much better... With KQJxx KTxxxx, I’d open 1H.

If LHO bids S and partner can’t place a neg X on that, I’m « losing » the H without strong regrets. The 53 fit might not play too well given my suit texture, and anyway H and C play at the same level over S. And if they bid D, I’ll be able to introduce my H’s cheaply.

Still, opening 1H fearing the reverse will get us too high, or passing to bid some kind of conventional 2-suiter later are not horrible bids. And any might prove the right call on a given deal.

[Cyberyeti]

ahydra, on 2020-May-17, 18:01, said:

Tough one.

If I open 1H, I'm well-placed unless I hear 2D, in which case I have to rebid my hearts (but that's fairly typical, would be the same even if I was 5-5). The risk is then that partner leaves me in 2H when we make four, but he'll only do that with an absolute minimum 2D response, and given my lack of aces and the fact partner's diamond honours are likely to be useless, this isn't much of a risk.

If I open 1C then I am nowhere near good enough to reverse into 2H over a 1S response - although the clubs are more than good enough to rebid, I haven't shown that I have even one heart, let alone five! If partner responds 1D, I could get the shape across nicely after something like 1C-1D; 1H-something; 2H.

Mainly we should be looking to get to 4H. Particularly if playing Walsh, the risk of it going 1C-1S and it becoming too hard to find 4H means that - I think - opening 1H offers the best chance of that. It certainly allows partner to get into the right mindset much easier if he holds three hearts.

ahydra

1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥ isn't a barrel of laughs either with partner 5152.

I think it also matters if partner will bypass a diamond suit to bid spades over 1♣, that would favour opening 1♥.

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-18, 02:45, said:

1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥ isn't a barrel of laughs either with partner 5152.

I think it also matters if partner will bypass a diamond suit to bid spades over 1♣, that would favour opening 1♥.

That's laying it on a bit thick. Just because we have 5/6 does not mean partner has 5/5 in the other two suits, and I think it is a waste of bidding space to base our decisions on this kind of pessimism. I'll happily take a bad result against these distributions if it means I get an edge in competitive auctions, where partner can support one of my two suits. With two opponents and one partner, isn't one of the two more likely to hold long spades (or long diamonds), let's say at 2:1 odds? So after your opening bid the bidding comes around at you and they've braved their way to 3♠ or so. How do you best prepare to involve partner in the decision on their 4♠, 4♦ or even 5♦?

The last time I held a big hand like this (I held the clubs and the spades that time) opps were in 4♥ by the time I got to bid again, and I managed to steal the contact in 5♠X making, with the best double dummy result being 7♠X-2 (their 7♥ made). I think the opening bid should be the first move to best involve partner in these high stakes decision, because this is shaping up to be big swing game. And you can take all the games with silent opponents and partner giving a preference at the two level in exchange.

[nudnikbp]

One club. One heart could work better, but I haven't had good luck with distorting suit length.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2020-May-18, 04:42, said:

That's laying it on a bit thick. Just because we have 5/6 does not mean partner has 5/5 in the other two suits, and I think it is a waste of bidding space to base our decisions on this kind of pessimism. I'll happily take a bad result against these distributions if it means I get an edge in competitive auctions, where partner can support one of my two suits. With two opponents and one partner, isn't one of the two more likely to hold long spades (or long diamonds), let's say at 2:1 odds? So after your opening bid the bidding comes around at you and they've braved their way to 3♠ or so. How do you best prepare to involve partner in the decision on their 4♠, 4♦ or even 5♦?

The last time I held a big hand like this (I held the clubs and the spades that time) opps were in 4♥ by the time I got to bid again, and I managed to steal the contact in 5♠X making, with the best double dummy result being 7♠X-2 (their 7♥ made). I think the opening bid should be the first move to best involve partner in these high stakes decision, because this is shaping up to be big swing game. And you can take all the games with silent opponents and partner giving a preference at the two level in exchange.

We can run into this opposite a 5143/5242/5233 7 count as we play 2♣ forcing unless you didn't really have a response.

I was just saying a 2♦ response wasn't the only issue with opening 1♥. We theoretically don't distort suit lengths, and have had terrible results every time we have done.

Clubs and spades are COMPLETELY different, would you have bid 5♥ over 4♠ ?

[bluenikki]

nekthen, on 2020-May-17, 06:13, said:

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5 card major strong no trump

Dealer North All NV

None of the bidders have planned what they will do when their partner's double of 5♠ is redoubled.

[hrothgar]

bluenikki, on 2020-May-18, 06:39, said:

None of the bidders have planned what they will do when their partner's double of 5♠ is redoubled.

I, personally, will say to myself "Bridge is a game of percentages".
Guess I'm going to get a bad result today

Probably won't be the last

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-18, 06:35, said:

We can run into this opposite a 5143/5242/5233 7 count as we play 2♣ forcing unless you didn't really have a response.

I was just saying a 2♦ response wasn't the only issue with opening 1♥. We theoretically don't distort suit lengths, and have had terrible results every time we have done.

Clubs and spades are COMPLETELY different, would you have bid 5♥ over 4♠ ?

Why do you insist on giving partner 5 spades? That is exactly the convenient assumption.

I agree that spades and clubs are completely different than hearts and clubs. In fact, a number of posts up I said I would open this hand 1♥, but if my hearts and spades were swapped I would open 1♣ without a problem, precisely because I can bid 4♠ over a 4♥ from the opponents but I have to go up a level with the hand as given - and I want to involve my partner in that decision. I think with a 1♥ opening it is easier to show most of the features of this hand in a competitive auction (again, as I said before).

bluenikki, on 2020-May-18, 06:39, said:

None of the bidders have planned what they will do when their partner's double of 5♠ is redoubled.

Could you give the full auction? If you have shown you are bidding primarily on shape partner should not double without good reason. Depending on what happened so far he will be expecting 0, 0.5 or maybe even 1 defensive trick in your hand, and you need to respond differently in these cases.

[mikeh]

I pass.

I’ve read all the comments about opening and what struck me was how much everyone dreads most foreseeable developments. That’s not surprising.

We hold an ace less 10 count. Some are proposing to open 1H and rebid that weak, short suit over a 2D response, thus eliminating any real hope of ever finding a good club contract unless partner has at least 4 of them, and risking a high level heart contract in an inadequate fit.

Others open 1C and bury the heart suit over a 1S response. And don’t get me started on the poster who planned to open 1H and perhaps jumpshift in clubs.

Opening this hand is an invitation to a disaster. Since actively inviting disaster is rarely a smart move, one should perhaps consider passing

The auction could, obviously, time out poorly, and passing is no assurance of a successful auction. However, it does one huge, important thing: it tells partner we don’t have a lot of hcp. Meanwhile, on many auctions, where the ops are bidding, we can make an intelligent call on our next turn


Thus P (1d) P (1S)....I’d bid 2N here (not 1N, because I want partner to know I have extra shape).

There are too many possible auctions to spell out how I’d intend to bid and, yes, some of them will make me wish I’d opened. However, passing leads, in my view, to far fewer and generally less severe self-inflicted wounds than dies guessing which distortion to make by opening or on the next round.

The main problem with my plan is that my bidding will make it easier for the opps to declare, should they outbid us. However, on the flip side, were I to open, and the opps declare, partner may do all kinds of terrible things. He may double a cold contract, playing us for some defence. He may over-bid in hearts, playing us for a better suit. On other sequences, he may drive to 3N, and find we provide neither tricks nor entry. He may simply get us too high, and so on.

Pass may be old-fashioned, and I’d definitely open if playing a strong club method, but I don’t generally play that.