[alphred]

Hi all
How do you bid these hands?
North: Sp. 4 2, He. K 9 8 4, Di. A Q 9 7, Cl. A K 10
South: Sp. A J 8 7 3, He. 7, Di. K 5 4 3 2, Cl. 9 2
West opens with Pass. Opps don´t intervene.
System: Standard American.
gtg thx all
Alphred

[spotlight7]

 alphred, on 2019-November-16, 03:41, said:

Hi all
How do you bid these hands?
North: Sp. 4 2, He. K 9 8 4, Di. A Q 9 7, Cl. A K 10
South: Sp. A J 8 7 3, He. 7, Di. K 5 4 3 2, Cl. 9 2
West opens with Pass. Opps don´t intervene.
System: Standard American.
gtg thx all
Alphred

Alvin Roth, Picture Bidding book

1N-2H-2S*-3D* 5-5 inv. hand, 5D

[FelicityR]

I'd rather be in 3NT here than 5♦.

[Cyberyeti]

 alphred, on 2019-November-16, 03:41, said:

Hi all
How do you bid these hands?
North: Sp. 4 2, He. K 9 8 4, Di. A Q 9 7, Cl. A K 10
South: Sp. A J 8 7 3, He. 7, Di. K 5 4 3 2, Cl. 9 2
West opens with Pass. Opps don´t intervene.
System: Standard American.
gtg thx all
Alphred

---

5♦ might be a touch better but IMO S can't insist on going beyound 3N, if he does you'll be off 3 aces and the spades won't be solid, and you don't raise 3♦ to 4 on this N hand type.

[Zelandakh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-16, 05:30, said:

5♦ might be a touch better but IMO S can't insist on going beyound 3N, if he does you'll be off 3 aces and the spades won't be solid, and you don't raise 3♦ to 4 on this N hand type.

If South rebids 3♦ in SA, North should certainly not continue with 3NT. That will only happen if they peek and see that the South hand is so weak.

[nige1]

Perhaps...

---

[Tramticket]

What is the form of scoring? IMPs? Or Match point pairs?

I'm not convinced that South is strong enough to force to game - particularly if it is pairs. At pairs, I would transfer then bid 2NT. At teams (particularly vulnerable) it is worth stretching for the game bonus and there is a much stronger case for transferring and then bidding 3D. Then with four-card support (and values suitable for a suit contract), North will raise diamonds (or cue-bid as Nigel suggests) and 5D will end the auction.

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2019-November-16, 07:52, said:

If South rebids 3♦ in SA, North should certainly not continue with 3NT. That will only happen if they peek and see that the South hand is so weak.

I'm not sure what SA says, but for me unless N has 4♦/3♠ or 5♦ he doesn't raise diamonds here as 3N can easily be the last making spot when all pard wants to know is that you have the other suits securely stopped. For me 3♦ only shows 5-4.

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-16, 08:44, said:

For me 3♦ only shows 5-4.

Well yes, but it does suggest playing in diamonds and I wouldn't bid a four-card diamond suit just for the sake of it. I wouldn't usually be 5242 for instance. If you don't want partner to raise with four-card suit, you shouldn't be bidding 3D in my opinion.

[Zelandakh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-16, 08:44, said:

I'm not sure what SA says, but for me unless N has 4♦/3♠ or 5♦ he doesn't raise diamonds here as 3N can easily be the last making spot when all pard wants to know is that you have the other suits securely stopped. For me 3♦ only shows 5-4.

The standard rule as I understand it is that Responder only introduces a minor with a hand prepared to play 5m if Opener has a fit and suitable values. With all of the hard honours this North hand is eminently suitable. There are obviously better methods around such as second round transfers or using 3m+1 to show a fit and unwillingness to commit to diamonds, not to mention splitting off the 5-4 hands that are primarily looking for a stop in the short suit into their own sequences to keep the transfer+new minor auctions pure, but I do not think we can assume anything like that based on the OP description of "Standard American".

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2019-November-16, 09:12, said:

The standard rule as I understand it is that Responder only introduces a minor with a hand prepared to play 5m if Opener has a fit and suitable values. With all of the hard honours this North hand is eminently suitable. There are obviously better methods around such as second round transfers or using 3m+1 to show a fit and unwillingness to commit to diamonds, not to mention splitting off the 5-4 hands that are primarily looking for a stop in the short suit into their own sequences to keep the transfer+new minor auctions pure, but I do not think we can assume anything like that based on the OP description of "Standard American".

OK, I normally use it a little differently, and opener with 10 of his points and solid stops in the others bids 3N, you bid 3♦ to make 5♦ an option if a side suit is open.

[dsLawsd]

This problem might occur in any system it seems to me although some forcing club systems might not.
Bidding 2 NT after the transfer is probably the most standard approach since game is not odds on without a max NT opener or a very decent spade fit.

The state of the score and the scoring method certainly matter of course.

Good question.

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-16, 05:30, said:

5♦ might be a touch better but IMO S can't insist on going beyound 3N, if he does you'll be off 3 aces and the spades won't be solid, and you don't raise 3♦ to 4 on this N hand type.

For us it's borderline to bid 3♦, but if he does then with that fit we are destined to 5♦, for better or worse.

[bluenikki]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-16, 08:44, said:

I'm not sure what SA says, but for me unless N has 4♦/3♠ or 5♦ he doesn't raise diamonds here as 3N can easily be the last making spot when all pard wants to know is that you have the other suits securely stopped. For me 3♦ only shows 5-4.

but certainly not 5422.

[Zelandakh]

 bluenikki, on 2019-November-18, 05:34, said:

but certainly not 5422.

How would you choose to bid a 5242 hand with slam interest opposite a suit fit?

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2019-November-18, 06:02, said:

How would you choose to bid a 5242 hand with slam interest opposite a suit fit?

I suspect he means not a minimum 5242, I was thinking the same as you, but also I think it's crazy not to bid say QJ109x, xx, AKxx, xx like this where you end up in 3N opposite Kx, xxx, QJx, AKQJx, 3N is off unless hearts are 4-4 and you want to play 4♠ on the 5-2.

[Tramticket]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-18, 06:46, said:

I suspect he means not a minimum 5242, I was thinking the same as you, but also I think it's crazy not to bid say QJ109x, xx, AKxx, xx like this where you end up in 3N opposite Kx, xxx, QJx, AKQJx, 3N is off unless hearts are 4-4 and you want to play 4♠ on the 5-2.

Your QJ109x, xx, AKxx, xx is a minimum game force, but it is very pure. Yes, I would bid 3♦ with this at IMPS and be reasonably happy if partner raises - as you point out, 5♦ and 4♠ are both possible contracts. But at match-point pairs we all know that a good auction to 5m can lose out to pairs who play in an "inferior" 3NT with the cards lying well or getting a nice lead. Playing match-points - I rebid 3NT and let RHO try and pick the right lead.

[bluenikki]

 Zelandakh, on 2019-November-18, 06:02, said:

How would you choose to bid a 5242 hand with slam interest opposite a suit fit?

I don't know.

But I do know you can't use the same bid to begin a semi-balanced slam auction as you use to express fear of a notrump game.

(I myself reserve some artificial first response to initiate all slam auctions when lacking a singleton or a 6-card suit.)

Carl

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-16, 08:44, said:

I'm not sure what SA says, but for me unless N has 4♦/3♠ or 5♦ he doesn't raise diamonds here as 3N can easily be the last making spot when all pard wants to know is that you have the other suits securely stopped. For me 3♦ only shows 5-4.

I could hardly disagree more than I do with this post.

Firstly, game before slam. In standard treatments, 3D is gf, showing at least 5-4. If 5-4 then responder has a hand on which he thinks that a 4-4 diamond contract may be superior to 3N.

Given that a 5-3 spade game will almost always be better than a 4-4 diamond game, and that one explores game before slam in these auctions, opener has to bid 3S over 3D with 3 card support. I suppose that one might deny the spade if one has an incredible hand for diamonds....say, something like KQx xx AQxxx AJx, where 6D will be safer than 6S opposite say Axxxx Ax KJxx xx. But even tho 4-4 fits will often be better for slam than 5-3 fits, the aphorism of game before slam means that one will almost never bypass 3S with 3 card support.

Secondly, although already touched upon, while 3D doesn't promise slam values nor does it promise more than 4 diamonds, it will always be based on one of (a) a hand with slam interest or (b) a hand with a fear of notrump, and a willingness to play 5D on a 4-4 fit. If responder is unwilling to play 5D on a 4-4 fit, opposite a suitable hand (on which more follows), then he does not bid 3D.

Therefore, and thirdly, opener's task, on hearing the 3D call, is to consider whether his hand is a good mesh, a bad mesh, or an in-between mesh with those hand-types.

With a poor mesh, so no 3 spades and with lots of stuff in the rounded suits, and either shortish diamonds or just a blah hand, with lots of slow values, he bids 3N.

With 3 spades, and absent a super-fit for diamonds and controls so as to be slammish (if partner is), one always bids 3S.

With a great mesh...so a hand with great diamond support, and either a wide-open side suit or a hand with good controls, raise diamonds. With say Kx xxx AQxx AQx, it is unsafe to bid 3N. Now, if one can use 3H here as artificial, great, but I don't think that is remotely standard, so one bids 4D....if partner is worried about 3N, so am I! Of course, partner's worry could be about clubs, but bidding is not perfect.

With in-between hands, one has to make a decision....3N basically committing the hand to 3N, probably 90% of the time, or 4D, committing to 5D or slam.

Here, we have good controls....we have 6 controls, where A=2, K=1. The typical expectation is about 4-5 controls in a 15-17 1N. Therefore this is a good hand from that perspective. Controls are key to slam bidding. When one has 'extra' controls, beyond partner's expectation, then one should be aggressive in cooperating with game or slam exploration. Here, game is already committed, so the aggression will be towards slam, since partner may have slam ambitions.

However, we have a terrible holding in spades. Hx would be much better (where H = q or better), and we do have stoppers in both side suits, so 3N rates to be ok, should partner's 3D be based on a fear of 3N, which is a common holding.

But, we have superb diamonds, and partner will be reluctant to pull 3N with hands such as AKxxx x KJxxx xx, yet slam is virtually lay down

Finally, in some fields the form of scoring might matter. If partner is trustworthy, I'd always bid 4D at imps, since with this hand 5D would need to buy very badly to fail. At mps, however, missing 3N may be costly, in that 430/630 beats 400/420/600/620.

With a good partner, I'd bid 4D anyway....yes, if it turns out that partner has no slam interest and was worried about clubs, then I've guessed wrong...and maybe even if he was worried about hearts. However, sometimes we make no overtricks in either game, sometimes we get to a good slam, and once in a while 5D makes and 3N fails: say KQJxx x KJxxx xx. They lead a heart and we take our King, but they run 5 winners when we finally drive out the spade Ace.


Btw, many experienced players play repeat transfers here, such that responder would rebid 3C, not 3D. This is not for the casual partnership, since it requires modifications to a number of aspects of responding to 1N (typically one can no longer transfer to spades and then invite game....1N 2H 2S 2N is a transfer to clubs, not a balanced invite).

Anyway, my choice here would be 4D unless I was playing with an indifferent partner and in a mediocre field. I usually don't try for tops in weak fields, and would not want to be in a thin slam with an indifferent player at the helm.

[miamijd]

 mikeh, on 2019-November-18, 13:37, said:

I could hardly disagree more than I do with this post.

Firstly, game before slam. In standard treatments, 3D is gf, showing at least 5-4. If 5-4 then responder has a hand on which he thinks that a 4-4 diamond contract may be superior to 3N.

Given that a 5-3 spade game will almost always be better than a 4-4 diamond game, and that one explores game before slam in these auctions, opener has to bid 3S over 3D with 3 card support. I suppose that one might deny the spade if one has an incredible hand for diamonds....say, something like KQx xx AQxxx AJx, where 6D will be safer than 6S opposite say Axxxx Ax KJxx xx. But even tho 4-4 fits will often be better for slam than 5-3 fits, the aphorism of game before slam means that one will almost never bypass 3S with 3 card support.

Secondly, although already touched upon, while 3D doesn't promise slam values nor does it promise more than 4 diamonds, it will always be based on one of (a) a hand with slam interest or (b) a hand with a fear of notrump, and a willingness to play 5D on a 4-4 fit. If responder is unwilling to play 5D on a 4-4 fit, opposite a suitable hand (on which more follows), then he does not bid 3D.

Therefore, and thirdly, opener's task, on hearing the 3D call, is to consider whether his hand is a good mesh, a bad mesh, or an in-between mesh with those hand-types.

With a poor mesh, so no 3 spades and with lots of stuff in the rounded suits, and either shortish diamonds or just a blah hand, with lots of slow values, he bids 3N.

With 3 spades, and absent a super-fit for diamonds and controls so as to be slammish (if partner is), one always bids 3S.

With a great mesh...so a hand with great diamond support, and either a wide-open side suit or a hand with good controls, raise diamonds. With say Kx xxx AQxx AQx, it is unsafe to bid 3N. Now, if one can use 3H here as artificial, great, but I don't think that is remotely standard, so one bids 4D....if partner is worried about 3N, so am I! Of course, partner's worry could be about clubs, but bidding is not perfect.

With in-between hands, one has to make a decision....3N basically committing the hand to 3N, probably 90% of the time, or 4D, committing to 5D or slam.

Here, we have good controls....we have 6 controls, where A=2, K=1. The typical expectation is about 4-5 controls in a 15-17 1N. Therefore this is a good hand from that perspective. Controls are key to slam bidding. When one has 'extra' controls, beyond partner's expectation, then one should be aggressive in cooperating with game or slam exploration. Here, game is already committed, so the aggression will be towards slam, since partner may have slam ambitions.

However, we have a terrible holding in spades. Hx would be much better (where H = q or better), and we do have stoppers in both side suits, so 3N rates to be ok, should partner's 3D be based on a fear of 3N, which is a common holding.

But, we have superb diamonds, and partner will be reluctant to pull 3N with hands such as AKxxx x KJxxx xx, yet slam is virtually lay down

Finally, in some fields the form of scoring might matter. If partner is trustworthy, I'd always bid 4D at imps, since with this hand 5D would need to buy very badly to fail. At mps, however, missing 3N may be costly, in that 430/630 beats 400/420/600/620.

With a good partner, I'd bid 4D anyway....yes, if it turns out that partner has no slam interest and was worried about clubs, then I've guessed wrong...and maybe even if he was worried about hearts. However, sometimes we make no overtricks in either game, sometimes we get to a good slam, and once in a while 5D makes and 3N fails: say KQJxx x KJxxx xx. They lead a heart and we take our King, but they run 5 winners when we finally drive out the spade Ace.


Btw, many experienced players play repeat transfers here, such that responder would rebid 3C, not 3D. This is not for the casual partnership, since it requires modifications to a number of aspects of responding to 1N (typically one can no longer transfer to spades and then invite game....1N 2H 2S 2N is a transfer to clubs, not a balanced invite).

Anyway, my choice here would be 4D unless I was playing with an indifferent partner and in a mediocre field. I usually don't try for tops in weak fields, and would not want to be in a thin slam with an indifferent player at the helm.

3H is absolutely standard to show a D fit.