BBO Discussion Forums: Ideal contract revealed ahead of time - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Ideal contract revealed ahead of time

#1 User is offline   el mister 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 288
  • Joined: 2007-August-07

Posted 2018-August-01, 11:34

Played a club duplicate last night, sitting down EW at one table we declared 4 making 12. North enters the score in the bridgemate and passes it to me to OK, which I do, it's a 100% top, as the room is in 3N for 10. South muses that it seems odd to play a 7-2 heart fit in 3N and then the lightbulb flickers on, North has entered the wrong board number into the bridgemate - we were playing #s 11 and 12, and we played 12 first. [and I also failed to notice when I OK'd the score].

South is directing the game, as it happens, so gets up to delete the entry off the PC and put the correct one back into the bridgemate. We then move onto the next board (#11), in the knowledge of what the par contract is. I thought about saying should we just take an average or something but figured the director would know the protocol - apparently the protocol here was to do nothing, just bid as normal and play it out (for 9 tricks - wpp :) )

Surely that ain't right? It was a pretty ordinary standard club game, so not one where you'd expect to see scrupulously accurate adherence to the Laws. I'm asking out just out of curiosity as to what is the right thing to do there.
0

#2 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,407
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-August-01, 12:07

View Postel mister, on 2018-August-01, 11:34, said:

Surely that ain't right? It was a pretty ordinary standard club game, so not one where you'd expect to see scrupulously accurate adherence to the Laws. I'm asking out just out of curiosity as to what is the right thing to do there.


Of course it ain't right, maybe South isn't up to directing and playing at the same time.
I think under our RA your score for board 12 would stand and you would not play board 11 with both sides being assigned 40%.
2

#3 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2018-August-01, 14:34

A very common, but poor configuration of the Bridgemates:

No information related to results at other tables should ever be shown on any Brigemate terminal until the board has been recorded by all contestants.

For barometer events this means until each round is completed, for Howell and Mithell events this means until the entire session is completed.

(I believe the practice is a reminisce of old days when you had travelers in each board where you entered your result and could inspect what had happened on the board so far.)
2

#4 User is offline   DozyDom 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 191
  • Joined: 2017-November-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2018-August-01, 16:19

View Postpescetom, on 2018-August-01, 12:07, said:

Of course it ain't right, maybe South isn't up to directing and playing at the same time.
I think under our RA your score for board 12 would stand and you would not play board 11 with both sides being assigned 40%.

Isn't it N's responsibility to ensure the correct boards are being played/to enter the correct board number in the Bridgemate? That's the way I've always heard it, and it would lead to N/S getting an average minus. In which case it's very convenient for the director that they misrecalled the law.
0

#5 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2018-August-01, 16:31

View PostDozyDom, on 2018-August-01, 16:19, said:

Isn't it N's responsibility to ensure the correct boards are being played/to enter the correct board number in the Bridgemate? That's the way I've always heard it, and it would lead to N/S getting an average minus. In which case it's very convenient for the director that they misrecalled the law.

And it is East's (or West's) responsibility to verify that the entry is correct before confirming it.

So they are both sides at equal fault.
0

#6 User is offline   el mister 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 288
  • Joined: 2007-August-07

Posted 2018-August-01, 18:11

View Postpran, on 2018-August-01, 14:34, said:

A very common, but poor configuration of the Bridgemates:

No information related to results at other tables should ever be shown on any Brigemate terminal until the board has been recorded by all contestants.

For barometer events this means until each round is completed, for Howell and Mithell events this means until the entire session is completed.

(I believe the practice is a reminisce of old days when you had travelers in each board where you entered your result and could inspect what had happened on the board so far.)

There would seriously be mass insurrection if you couldn't gaze in wonderment at everyone else's results afer the board, at this particular club night. Introduction of Bridgemates was like the Martians have landed, so reckon the club are steering the practical course here.
0

#7 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,840
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, NZ

Posted 2018-August-01, 19:18

When this happened at our table a few weeks back, the TD assigned 40%/40%, and I agree with that ruling.

ahydra
0

#8 User is offline   sanst 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 837
  • Joined: 2014-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Deventer, The Netherlands

Posted 2018-August-02, 02:53

View PostDozyDom, on 2018-August-01, 16:19, said:

Isn't it N's responsibility to ensure the correct boards are being played/to enter the correct board number in the Bridgemate? That's the way I've always heard it, and it would lead to N/S getting an average minus. In which case it's very convenient for the director that they misrecalled the law.

Where do the laws say so? What would you do if a pair refuses to sit NS because they wouldn’t t take the risk of being punished and EW walking away with no penalty at all or maybe even Avg+? Ahydra is right, it should be Avg-/Avg-.
Joost
0

#9 User is offline   sanst 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 837
  • Joined: 2014-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Deventer, The Netherlands

Posted 2018-August-02, 02:57

View Postel mister, on 2018-August-01, 18:11, said:

There would seriously be mass insurrection if you couldn't gaze in wonderment at everyone else's results afer the board,

At most if not all clubs in Holland too.
Joost
0

#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-August-02, 04:49

A lot of clubs automatically show the first board of a round. I do not understand this, as you always enter the number accurately accurately if you have to enter it yourself. When the board number is entered automatically, it is easy to make a mistake.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#11 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-August-02, 05:37

View PostVampyr, on 2018-August-02, 04:49, said:

A lot of clubs automatically show the first board of a round. I do not understand this, as you always enter the number accurately accurately if you have to enter it yourself. When the board number is entered automatically, it is easy to make a mistake.

If people dis always enter the board accurately as you say, there would not be a problem, but they don't. In particular, they often enter the board number following, if the new board has been put on the table before the score has been entered.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
1

#12 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,407
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2018-August-02, 07:12

View Postgordontd, on 2018-August-02, 05:37, said:

If people dis always enter the board accurately as you say, there would not be a problem, but they don't. In particular, they often enter the board number following, if the new board has been put on the table before the score has been entered.


It does seem more logical to always assume the first board of round. In the clubs around here with Bridgemates I've noticed that people are very careful about playing the first board first, for this reason. In the many clubs where still play with travellers people are less careful about the order in which they play boards, as playing them in the wrong order does not create real problems; but of course with travellers they risk the more insidious errors of opening the wrong traveller or finding the wrong traveller in the right cover.
0

#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-August-02, 10:32

View Postpescetom, on 2018-August-02, 07:12, said:

It does seem more logical to always assume the first board of round. In the clubs around here with Bridgemates I've noticed that people are very careful about playing the first board first, for this reason. In the many clubs where still play with travellers people are less careful about the order in which they play boards, as playing them in the wrong order does not create real problems; but of course with travellers they risk the more insidious errors of opening the wrong traveller or finding the wrong traveller in the right cover.


Yes, but this risk is minimised as long as people write the board number on the outside of the traveller.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,608
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2018-August-02, 12:08

View PostDozyDom, on 2018-August-01, 16:19, said:

Isn't it N's responsibility to ensure the correct boards are being played/to enter the correct board number in the Bridgemate? That's the way I've always heard it, and it would lead to N/S getting an average minus. In which case it's very convenient for the director that they misrecalled the law.

View Postsanst, on 2018-August-02, 02:53, said:

Where do the laws say so? What would you do if a pair refuses to sit NS because they wouldn’t t take the risk of being punished and EW walking away with no penalty at all or maybe even Avg+? Ahydra is right, it should be Avg-/Avg-.

First off, a pair that refuses to follow the TD's instructions is subject to penalty, up to and including ejection from the event. OTOH, in the clubs around here, subject to NS being reserved for people with disabiities, people can sit wherever they want.

The nearest relevant law is

Quote

Law 7D: Any contestant remaining at a table throughout a session is primarily responsible for maintaining proper conditions of play at the table.

Note: in a pairs game, "contestant" refers to the pair, not just one player. IAC, I don't think I've ever seen a law or regulation specifying who is supposed to enter scores, and who is supposed to validate them. The tradition that North takes care of that, like Topsy, "jest growed".

Along with 7D, there's

Quote

Law 7A: When a board is to be played it is placed in the center of the table where it shall remain, correctly oriented, until play is completed.

When I sit North, I try to remember to put one board on the table — the one that's to be played — and to keep the other board(s) somewhere that other players (including South) can't get to them. This is how I try to avoid playing the wrong board or any of several other problems that can occur when the boards are all piled up in the middle of the table. Generally, it works well.

In the instant case, or similar, Law 16D2 applies to the play of board 12.

Quote

Law 16D2: If the Director considers that the information would likely interfere with normal play he may, before any call has been made:
(a) adjust the players’ positions at the table, if the type of contest and scoring permit, so that the player with information about one hand will hold that hand;
(b) if the form of competition allows of it order the board redealt for those contestants;
(c.) allow completion of the play of the board standing ready to award an adjusted score if he judges that the extraneous information affected the result;
(d) award an adjusted score (for team play see Law 86B).

In particular, the TD has a choice between 16D2{c} and 16D2{d}; 16D2{a} and {b} are not relevant. In the instant case, it seems clear that the information all four players have may well affect the result. Still I suppose the TD can try to get a valid result. I wouldn't like it; I have sympathy for the position that 16D2{c} should not apply, which leaves 16D2{d} (and we may get to an artificial adjusted score even under 16D2{c}). That takes us to

Quote

Law 12C2{a}: When owing to an irregularity no result can be obtained (see also C1{d}), the Director awards an artificial adjusted score according to responsibility for the irregularity:
average minus (at most 40% of the available matchpoints in pairs) to a contestant directly at fault,
average (50% in pairs) to a contestant only partly at fault,
and average plus (at least 60% in pairs) to a contestant in no way at fault.

If someone from the NS pair is responsible for entering the score, and someone from the EW pair is responsible for validating it*, then both contestants are at least partly at fault, so nobody should be getting average plus. It seems to me that ruling that both are directly at fault is reasonable, in which case both would get average minus.

* even if this responsibility is not explicitly stated in law or regulation, the TD can so rule (see Law 80B1).
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2018-August-02, 20:20

Can’t seem to quote a quote, but in the ACBL they normally play 2-winner movements, so adjusting the players’ positions will often not be possible. But I don’t know the OP’s jurisdiction.

But actually, the ACBL often run two-winner movements but treat them as one-winner. Once I was at a club game where the rover played one board NS and one EW. I mentioned to the director that I was pleased that there was going to be an arrow-switch.

But no. The game was scored as one-winner with three lines in play.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users