[Kungsgeten]

After playing Swedish Club (1♣ = weak NT or a strong hand, we play 12-14 NT or 17+) for a couple of years I must say that my favourite part of the system is how comfortable weak NT hands are to bid. I like separating the weak NT hand type from weakish unbalanced hand types, since I believe it makes competitive auctions easier. Limiting the other opening bids are also nice, but I really don't mind the wide ranges of a natural system that much. Do you think a structure like one of the below could be a good idea?

1C = 11-13 NT / 17+ NT / 15+ with clubs / 16+ any single-suited
1D = Natural unbalanced, 11-21. Could have longer clubs. 11-15 if single-suited.
1M = 5+ major, unbalanced. 11+ (forcing), 13-15 if single-suited.
1NT = 14-16
2C = 11-14, 5C and 4M or 6+C.
2D = Weak two in a major, or GF with diamonds and another suit.
2M = 9-12, single-suited.

NT hands include 4-4-1-4 pattern. The above is similar to Polish/Swedish club, but with wide-range major and diamond openings. I'm not a big fan of the 2C opening though, and ideally I'd like the strong variants in 1C to be "one bid" types. Another alternative could be an unlimited nebulous 1D opening:

1C = 11-13 NT / 17+ NT / 16+ any single-suited / (15)16+ both minors
1D = 11+ (forcing) unbalanced with 4M and 4+m.
1M = 5+M, 11+ (forcing) unbalanced. 11-15 if single-suited.
1NT = 14-16
2m = 11-15 unbalanced with 5+m, no major.
2M = Weak.
2NT = 10-14 and 5-5 minors.

I'm not sure how this 1D opening would do though. It might be hard to handle in competitive auctions? Uncontested I think it could work okay.

[awm]

I supppose this question applies to Polish/Swedish club in general too, but have you considered opening 1C with (431)5 patterns? It seems like this would purify the 2C opening and also help find major fits.

The idea would be to show a balanced hand if partner responds in the short suit and to raise if partner responds in a 3-4 major. I guess the downside is that you “must” raise on three and Polish players seem to hate this, but many good players in a natural system will bid this way and believe it superior.

[Kungsgeten]

 awm, on 2018-June-04, 03:34, said:

I supppose this question applies to Polish/Swedish club in general too, but have you considered opening 1C with (431)5 patterns? It seems like this would purify the 2C opening and also help find major fits.

The idea would be to show a balanced hand if partner responds in the short suit and to raise if partner responds in a 3-4 major. I guess the downside is that you “must” raise on three and Polish players seem to hate this, but many good players in a natural system will bid this way and believe it superior.

I've thought about it in a Swedish Club context. I think it would work fine uncontested, especially when in the same range as the weak NT hand. It would be a bit worse if having intermediate strength, like 14-16, because opener would (probably?) need to be able to show extras but not game forcing values. A nice thing in competitive auctions is non-forcing freebids with the safety that opener will have two+ support, or a strong hand. I think the Swedish Club is very nice for partscore battles. It might be worth the risk though to open 1C with 5431 hands, and accept that we'll have to play some 5-1 fits. Swedish pair Fredin-Lindkvist used to include Precision 2D 11-16 patterns (4414, 4405, (43)15) in their Swedish Club opening, which might be sensible if you're going to open 1C with short diamonds anyway.

Other options I've thought about are to include a Precision 2D opener, and to open 1D with (14)35 patterns. Now 2C can promise a six card suit, but I'm not sure if it is worth it. It could also be interesting to play 2C as 6+ suit, while using a Silent Club approach (systemic pass with 5C and 4M).

[straube]

I would guess that these structures wouldn't work. It's pretty costly to force and these do so with what-can-be 11 point hands. Four of them. I'll be curious to see if and how you flesh out the continuations.

[Kungsgeten]

Swedish/Polish Club already has continuations, and I think the continuations could be even better here since we're excluding a lot of unbalanced strong hands. The other suit openings are unbalanced, which I think can help. The downside is ofcourse when opener is strong but responder is very weak, where we're likely going to be forced to the 3-level. After 1M-1NT for instance we could play Gazzilli (2C being minimum one suited, or at least an Acol two-bid) and jumps to 2NT/3X something like 16-18. We'd probably need lots of raises too, perhaps raising more aggressively to the 3-level than in a standard system.

The natural 1D opening shouldn't be a problem, since it isn't unlimited (if combined with a Multi 2D), but I think it would work to play it as unlimited too (especially if we remove strong single-suiters).

I don't know about the unlimited nebulous 1D. I'm thinking something like this:

1D---
1M = Natural, 0+ hcp, forcing.
1NT = No major, 0-12 hcp. Not forcing but seldom passed.
2C = GF relay.
2D = ART INV, no major.
2M+ = Not sure.

1D-1S (example);
1NT = Strong hand with 4H and 4+m. Perhaps 16+? Now 2D is a GF bid and others are non-forcing (Gazzilli style).
2m = 4H and 4+m, 11-15.
2H = Good raise, forcing.
2S = Minimum raise.
2NT+ = Can be used for strong/shapely hands. Not sure about the best scheme here. There's a lot of strong bids available

1D-1NT;
Pass = Possible. Probably something like 44(41).
2m = (4)5+m, 11-15
2M = 4M, 16-19. Not forcing.
2NT = Almost GF.
3m = GF.

1D-2C;
2D = 5+C
2H = Any 4441 or 5m440.
2S = 5+D and 4H, 11-15.
2NT = 5+D and 4M, 16+? Not full shape relays.
3C+ = 5+D and 4S, 11-15.

1D-2D;
2H = 5+C
2S = Three-suited, forcing.
2NT = 5+D non-forcing.
3C = 5+D GF.
3D = 5+D non-forcing, not suitable for 2NT.
3M = 5+D and 4M, slam interest.

It could be better to play 1D-1H as a relay, perhaps "natural or GF relay".

[awm]

I think the 1M openings are likely to create more problems for you than 1♦. There's less space, and you won't usually have an artificial 1NT available as you will after 1♦.

The basic issue is that there are some hand types where you will have to bid past 2M after 1M-P-1NT. Since you have a lot of ranges to distinguish, you probably can't restrict this to just very shapely hands, and since partner could have nothing you can't restrict it to game forces. So it seems you will play a bunch of 2NT contracts when opener has extras and responder has nothing, which are not likely to do well.

You've also got some problems in competition after 1M-P-1NT-BID, because now you've lost Gazzilli and are more cramped for space. If opener bids the way he would in normal methods, you will hang yourself quite often when responder has garbage.. but if opener is more conservative and passes a lot, you put a lot of pressure on responder with a constructive but less than invitational hand to back in.

[nullve]

 Kungsgeten, on 2018-June-04, 01:52, said:

After playing Swedish Club (1♣ = weak NT or a strong hand, we play 12-14 NT or 17+) for a couple of years I must say that my favourite part of the system is how comfortable weak NT hands are to bid. I like separating the weak NT hand type from weakish unbalanced hand types, since I believe it makes competitive auctions easier. Limiting the other opening bids are also nice, but I really don't mind the wide ranges of a natural system that much. Do you think a structure like one of the below could be a good idea?

1C = 11-13 NT / 17+ NT / 15+ with clubs / 16+ any single-suited
1D = Natural unbalanced, 11-21. Could have longer clubs. 11-15 if single-suited.
1M = 5+ major, unbalanced. 11+ (forcing), 13-15 if single-suited.
1NT = 14-16
2C = 11-14, 5C and 4M or 6+C.
2D = Weak two in a major, or GF with diamonds and another suit.
2M = 9-12, single-suited.

NT hands include 4-4-1-4 pattern. The above is similar to Polish/Swedish club, but with wide-range major and diamond openings. I'm not a big fan of the 2C opening though, and ideally I'd like the strong variants in 1C to be "one bid" types. Another alternative could be an unlimited nebulous 1D opening:

1C = 11-13 NT / 17+ NT / 16+ any single-suited / (15)16+ both minors
1D = 11+ (forcing) unbalanced with 4M and 4+m.
1M = 5+M, 11+ (forcing) unbalanced. 11-15 if single-suited.
1NT = 14-16
2m = 11-15 unbalanced with 5+m, no major.
2M = Weak.
2NT = 10-14 and 5-5 minors.

I'm not sure how this 1D opening would do though. It might be hard to handle in competitive auctions? Uncontested I think it could work okay.

It's my religious belief that 2m openings can be effective as weak preempts, so spending both on intermediate hands that can be handled satisfactorily by 1-level openings without causing significant problems on other frequent hand types, seems like a bad idea. But maybe lumping 11-13 BAL together with unbalanced minima in a "NAT or BAL" 1♣ cause much bigger problems in competitive auctions than I think. Still, the 2♣ and 2m openings you describe are themselves causing obvious problems in uncontested auctions on partscore deals, and I find it really hard to believe that you get enough compensation for that.

It might help if your 2♣ opening in the first structure promised 6+ C, e.g. by

* treating 10-12, 4M225 as 11-13 BAL and open 1♣;
* treating 13-15, 4M225 as 14-16 BAL and open 1N;
* treating 10-12, (43)15 as 11-13 BAL and open 1♣ (you already do that with 11-13, 4414, don't you?);
* treating 13-15, (43)15 as 14-16 BAL and open 1N (you already do that with 14-16, 4414, don't you?);
* opening 1♦ with 10-15, (41)35 (you can still "raise" 1♦ more aggressively than if promised 4+ D but could be 11-13 BAL);
* not opening 2♣ with 10-15, 4405 (or you could play 2♣ as "10-15, either 6+ C or 4405", more or less as in modern Viking Club).

[nullve]

 Kungsgeten, on 2018-June-04, 05:25, said:

Swedish pair Fredin-Lindkvist used to include Precision 2D 11-16 patterns (4414, 4405, (43)15) in their Swedish Club opening, which might be sensible if you're going to open 1C with short diamonds anyway.

I've been looking at the CCs from this year's open ETC. It turns out that none of the Polish pairs are playing Polish Club and that among the pairs that still do (or say they do, and whose CC I've read), all except one play something like

1♣ = a) 12-14 BAL b) 11-16, 4414 c) strong (e.g. 17+ unBAL or 18+ BAL).

 Kungsgeten, on 2018-June-04, 05:25, said:

open 1D with (14)35 patterns.

Ok, so you've already considered this.

[rhm]

 awm, on 2018-June-04, 03:34, said:

I supppose this question applies to Polish/Swedish club in general too, but have you considered opening 1C with (431)5 patterns? It seems like this would purify the 2C opening and also help find major fits.

The idea would be to show a balanced hand if partner responds in the short suit and to raise if partner responds in a 3-4 major. I guess the downside is that you “must” raise on three and Polish players seem to hate this, but many good players in a natural system will bid this way and believe it superior.

I do something similar in Polish club.
A 2♣ opening shows 6 pieces.

If I have at least a doubleton in both major and 5 cards in clubs I will open 1♣
If I have a singleton in a major, say 4♠=1♥=3♦=5♣ or 1♠=4♥=3♦=5♣ I will open 1♦. Since these are rare hands partner will initially assume 4 cards in ♦
If partner bids 1♠ over 1♦ and I have 1♠=4♥=3♦=5♣ I will rebid 1NT.

If I am 3♠=4♥=1♦=5♣ and partner bids 1♠ over my 1♣ opening I will raise on three.

This works very well and I do not see the fly in the ointment, but it does not seem to be popular

Rainer Herrmann