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Confederate statues My view

#161 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-August-28, 10:14

View Postnige1, on 2017-August-27, 12:22, said:

AFAIK, I haven't met Hrothgar. BBO and Bridge_Winners are our only points of contact.


Your posting history on rec.games.bridge circa the early 2000s tells a very different story
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#162 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-August-28, 15:42

View Postnige1, on 2017-August-27, 00:46, said:

Barmar and Diana_Eva seem to agree that ad hominem attacks on posters are OK, in practice.

IMO, such personal attacks are rarely substantiated but they can be still be hurtful and they're irrelevant to debate. Unless you believe that labelling a poster a POS (or whatever) invalidates his argument.

The old-fashioned view is that refuting an opinion is OK but vilifying its proponent isn't.

It's not ad hominem. An ad hominem is a rebuttal based solely on the character of the person you're trying to refute. But if someone makes a racist argument, and you believe racism is wrong, arguing against it is objective. It may appear that you're basing the argument on their character, since there's such a close correlation between it and the argument, but I don't think it's the same thing.

In addition, calling someone a racist when they make clearly racist comments is not out of line. It's not much different from calling Kenberg a nostalgic old fuddy-duddy, because so many of his posts are based on what he remembers life was like when he was growing up (apparently in the same idyllic town as Leave it to Beaver).

After a while it does become tiring, though. If someone repeatedly posts racist BS, it starts to become redundant to refute each of them directly. It becomes clear that everything they post is through racist glasses, and they've become the "Boy Who Cried N-word". I don't think the rest of us can be blamed for dismissing it all out of hand after a while.

It crosses the line if you use derogatory slurs like S-head, or piece of S. We have put posters on moderation for repeated attacks like this.

#163 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 14:00

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-August-24, 20:19, said:

We should not display statues that memorialize insurrectionists who fought to promote slavery in the U.S. End of story.

I note you didn't answer - had Lee died in combat, would he have been treasonous?

Posted Image
In the matter of the Mississippi state flag. . .
http://www.clarionle...es=&from=global

For the love of....

This guest columnist suggests that it is a mischaracterization of history to associate the state flag changes in the South (Mississippi) to Jim Crow segregation.

The flag above was just a "battle flag" for the troops--nothing more or less, so it should be ideologically separated from Jim Crow segregation and slavery since the flag change was in 1894.

Interesting theory. . .

SERIOUSLY? (Where is John McEnroe when you need him)?
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#164 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 14:37

To learn from the past (so as not to repeat mistakes already made) awareness is required. Reminders serve that purpose so long as the information concerning the subject is reasonably impartial. Even if the South had won, Lee would still have been a traitor to the North... lionizing his bravery and sagacity under stress is an obvious take. His relation to what came after is nebulous at best but likely a starting point for discussion of the implication of his participation in a formative time.
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#165 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-September-04, 08:10

View PostAl_U_Card, on 2017-September-03, 14:37, said:

To learn from the past (so as not to repeat mistakes already made) awareness is required.
.

Completely agree.

Quote

Matt Rudder Hattiesburg, Mississippi
Marshell Carnage In the 1930s, near Mobile Alabama, the noted Black anthropologist Zora Neale Hurston interviewed Cudjo Lewis, the last known living indiviual to have arrived in the United States aboard a slave ship- smuggled into a swamp along the Gulf Coast. This account is found in her book "Dust Tracks on a Road, pages 206-212. Lewis told how as a young man when in his African village was raided by Black slavers and fierce Amazon women warriors from the Kingdom of Dahomey. They killed all the old people and cut off their heads as trophies while the remainder were shackled into coffles and marched to the barracoons on the beach for sale. Upon their arrival on the coast they found the compound of King of Dahomey surrounded by a wall of skulls and with skulls stuck on the tops of skulls on the tops of the posts of the enclosing barricade. Arrangments for sale were made with a slave ship and they were loaded,

Perhaps it's time that African-Americans own up to this part of their past.

This is a comment of one of the responders. So I want to make sure I understand this line of thought correctly.

Since there are African tribes who sold their people or prisoners of war to eager, profit-driven American buyers who are under the jurisdiction of an American Constitution that says all men are created equal, we should overlook the original sin of bringing AFRICAN PEOPLE over to America and classifying and treating them as PROPERTY (such as farm animals, farm beasts, farm equipment and the like) with no legal standing to deny their rights, liberties, and personhood?

This slave trade was strictly a business commerce matter, in which profit-driven American traders were transporting valuable cargo from the savagery of Africa to a better, more civilized form of slavery or involuntary servitude.

"You can NOT be serious!"

A bandwagon appeal to attempt to sanitize the grave moral depravity of:
(1) agreeing to participate in and profit from the African-slave trade; and
(2) knowingly and willfully masterminding the legal constructs at a state and federal level to bolster the peculiar institution of slavery; and
(3) subjugating, exploiting, and systematically disenfrachising a group of people based solely on their melanin content.

Wow!
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#166 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2017-September-05, 10:43

redspawn and anyone else who posts pictures frequently: just fyi i strongly encourage you to save the image you want to post and re-host it on a site like imgur. hotlinking the image presents some problems both for you and the host of the image.

i'm not saying this is likely to happen, necessarily, but one disgruntled intern could change your image of a mississippi state flag to horse porn rather easily. certainly if it's from a smaller site, you're using their bandwidth, costing them money, and they'd be more inclined to deter your hotlinking with .htaccess files.

just psa.
OK
bed
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#167 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 08:55

View Postjjbrr, on 2017-September-05, 10:43, said:

i'm not saying this is likely to happen, necessarily, but one disgruntled intern could change your image of a mississippi state flag to horse porn rather easily. certainly if it's from a smaller site, you're using their bandwidth, costing them money, and they'd be more inclined to deter your hotlinking with .htaccess files.

I just checked a few of the images posted in this thread, they're mostly from decent sites. E.g. the flag is from msnbc.com, they're not going anywhere, and they host on the Akamai CDN so they have plenty of bandwidth.

#168 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 08:57

View Postbarmar, on 2017-September-06, 08:55, said:

I just checked a few of the images posted in this thread, they're mostly from decent sites. E.g. the flag is from msnbc.com, they're not going anywhere, and they host on the Akamai CDN so they have plenty of bandwidth.


Don't give me ideas Barry, don't give me ideas...
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#169 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 14:49

View Posthrothgar, on 2017-September-06, 08:57, said:

Don't give me ideas Barry, don't give me ideas...

Even you wouldn't risk your job for something silly like this.

#170 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 17:59

I know I said I wouldn't be back here, but I just couldn't resist posting these observations by Walter Williams...a black man. http://dailysignal.c...urging-statues/
So after reading this would you judge Walter Williams to be

1. Overtly racist (as you have judged me)
2. Just another Uncle Tom (as most of you probably judge Clarence Thomas) or
3. As having a valid point
?

#171 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 18:20

View PostChas_P, on 2017-September-06, 17:59, said:

I know I said I wouldn't be back here, but I just couldn't resist posting these observations by Walter Williams...a black man. http://dailysignal.c...urging-statues/
So after reading this would you judge Walter Williams to be

1. Overtly racist (as you have judged me)
2. Just another Uncle Tom (as most of you probably judge Clarence Thomas) or
3. As having a valid point
?


4. Misguided.

There is no reason that purging the nation of confederate statues and lifting people out of poverty has to be mutually exclusive. At the same time, his story is kind of interesting.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#172 User is offline   onoway 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 21:14

View Postdiana_eva, on 2017-August-27, 11:07, said:

Yes. Main point here being what's controversial and what not. Global warming is not a controversial issue, for example, despite your continuous arguing that yes it is and we should give Al the credit for defending the other side of the argument.

Global warming is not a controversial issue when the President of the United States denies it is an issue at all and therefore need not be considered in any of the laws or policies of the United States? Not trying to hijack the thread but that seemed an astounding thing to say.
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#173 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 05:58

View Postonoway, on 2017-September-06, 21:14, said:

Global warming is not a controversial issue when the President of the United States denies it is an issue at all and therefore need not be considered in any of the laws or policies of the United States? Not trying to hijack the thread but that seemed an astounding thing to say.


Belief doesn't affect reality. GW is only a political controversy.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#174 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 06:28

View PostChas_P, on 2017-September-06, 17:59, said:

I know I said I wouldn't be back here, but I just couldn't resist posting these observations by Walter Williams...a black man. http://dailysignal.c...urging-statues/
So after reading this would you judge Walter Williams to be

1. Overtly racist (as you have judged me)
2. Just another Uncle Tom (as most of you probably judge Clarence Thomas) or
3. As having a valid point
?

Chas,

1st -- I never called you an overt or covert racist.

2nd -- I discussed Georgia's past about its treatment of "The Negro" element in the South and its an ugly one filled with subjugation and discrimination.

3rd -- We discussed the underlying symbolism of the (1956-2001) Georgia Flag which was adopted as a political statement of resistance against a "tyrannical" Supreme Court that demanded integrated public schools and colleges in the South. This ruling imperiled the mores and established customs of the South during the Jim Crow Era; the governor and other politicans at the time vehemently fought against the mixing of races. Jim Crow made it clear that there will be no mixing (or contamination) of the races despite what federal bureaucrats say.

4th--From 2001-PRESENT, Georgia adopted a stage flag based on the First Official Flag of the Confederate States of America. This new, progressive flag is a quiet way of paying homage to the Confederacy without using the divisive "battle flag" emblem.

5th--Black leadership cannot create jobs that help African-Americans get gainfully employed; they are to give suggestions of policy actions for federal and state governments to consider. We must start the bidding by requiring state government to provide respectable educational infrastructure ALL ACROSS GEORGIA whose financing is no longer based on local county property values. This will continually disadvantage Black communities and white communities in poor rural counties in Georgia (and there are many).

6th--We have to get governors like Sonny Perdue and Nathan Deal to stop chopping $9 billion from education budgets over 15 years; stop prostituting Atlanta to relocating corporations without asking them to pay their fair share of corporate taxes; and stop reallocating spending cuts to help promote and finance Superbowl hosting stadiums. Yet a lot of folks marvel at why Georgia graduates are ill-prepared for the demands of a global economy. . . .race and class politics!

7th--It is government's responsibility to create policies that ensure students get a good quality education so they can graduate from high school and become productive citizens. Parents should reinforce the importance of education at home to help get their children across the finish line, but government has to meet them half-way by acting in good faith and not draining education budgets and compromising critical staff and resources needed to COACH, COUNSEL, INSPIRE, DIRECT, TEACH, and in cases of the very poor FEED our kids on school days.
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#175 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 08:55

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-06, 18:20, said:

4. Misguided.

There is no reason that purging the nation of confederate statues and lifting people out of poverty has to be mutually exclusive. At the same time, his story is kind of interesting.

Agreed. Confederate statues are a reflection of the attitudes that continue to oppress black people.

His point that black poverty declined significantly between 1940 and 1960, despite the lack of political repressentation, is drawing a false correlation. That was the period of the post-war boom and the rise of the American middle class, so I suspect this was mostly a case of a rising tide lifting all boats.

In a number of interviews I've heard with Elizabeth Warren, she mentions a big difference between the period from WWII to the 1980's, and the decades since then. Before Reagan, and his trickle-down policies, as the economy grew, it spread its benefits across most economic strata. But since then, the top 10% of earners saw their income increase by 76%, while the bottom 10% saw their income reduce by 9%.

And unfortunately, a vast majority of those in poverty are African-Americans in inner cities. We need to solve the income inequality problem in general, they can't just lift themselves out of poverty by themselves. But as long as Republicans are in charge, and making policies that disproportionately benefit the rich, this isn't going to be fixed.

But it doesn't cost much to remove Confederate statues, as a show of movement against institutional racism.

#176 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 08:55

View PostChas_P, on 2017-September-06, 17:59, said:

I know I said I wouldn't be back here, but I just couldn't resist posting these observations by Walter Williams...a black man. http://dailysignal.c...urging-statues/
So after reading this would you judge Walter Williams to be

1. Overtly racist (as you have judged me)
2. Just another Uncle Tom (as most of you probably judge Clarence Thomas) or
3. As having a valid point
?


4. wrong
OK
bed
1

#177 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 10:57

View Postbarmar, on 2017-September-07, 08:55, said:

Agreed. Confederate statues are a reflection of the attitudes that continue to oppress black people.

His point that black poverty declined significantly between 1940 and 1960, despite the lack of political repressentation, is drawing a false correlation. That was the period of the post-war boom and the rise of the American middle class, so I suspect this was mostly a case of a rising tide lifting all boats.

In a number of interviews I've heard with Elizabeth Warren, she mentions a big difference between the period from WWII to the 1980's, and the decades since then. Before Reagan, and his trickle-down policies, as the economy grew, it spread its benefits across most economic strata. But since then, the top 10% of earners saw their income increase by 76%, while the bottom 10% saw their income reduce by 9%.

And unfortunately, a vast majority of those in poverty are African-Americans in inner cities. We need to solve the income inequality problem in general, they can't just lift themselves out of poverty by themselves. But as long as Republicans are in charge, and making policies that disproportionately benefit the rich, this isn't going to be fixed.

But it doesn't cost much to remove Confederate statues, as a show of movement against institutional racism.


Well put.

Income inequality disproportionately and negatively affects the lowest income levels. When a group finds themselves consistently denied, due to race, equal access to opportunities the chances of any one person within that group of escaping those lowest percentiles are compounded dramatically.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#178 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-September-08, 05:31

View Postbarmar, on 2017-September-07, 08:55, said:


And unfortunately, a vast majority of those in poverty are African-Americans in inner cities. We need to solve the income inequality problem in general, they can't just lift themselves out of poverty by themselves. But as long as Republicans are in charge, and making policies that disproportionately benefit the rich, this isn't going to be fixed.

I thought the very bottom 25% could find their bootstraps and lift themselves out of poverty with sheer force of will, determination, and 3 minimum wage jobs working a total of 85 hours a week.

http://ideas.time.co...-bootstrapping/

Quote

The concept of bootstrapping dates back to at least the 1890s, when Horatio Alger wrote novels about boys who worked hard and rose up the social ladder from poverty and is intertwined with that other mythical ideal, the American Dream. Today, however, according to the recent Pew Study on the American Dream, social mobility between the lowest levels of American society and the middle class is increasingly difficult, if not impossible. Specifically, the study found that while a large number of Americans (84 percent) have a higher family income than did their parents, those born at both the top and the bottom of the “income ladder” stay where they are from one generation to the next. What that means is that those who begin life wealthy pass that wealth, but those born at the bottom—in other words those who would typically be candidates for bootstrapping—are now more likely to stay there. This is particularly true for African Americans who are stuck at the bottom more than any other group and may even to fall farther behind from one generation to the next.

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#179 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-September-08, 08:23

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-September-08, 05:31, said:

I thought the very bottom 25% could find their bootstraps and lift themselves out of poverty with sheer force of will, determination, and 3 minimum wage jobs working a total of 85 hours a week.

http://ideas.time.co...-bootstrapping/

And unfortunately, too many people born with white privilege still think the same thing. They think that the reason many African-Americans are stuck in inner cities is simply because they don't try hard enough to get out. Many think that "those people" actually prefer being on welfare rather than working for a living (the old stereotype of the "lazy black man" still persists), as if black people have no concept of self-esteem.

#180 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-08, 16:11

View PostRedSpawn, on 2017-September-08, 05:31, said:

I thought the very bottom 25% could find their bootstraps and lift themselves out of poverty with sheer force of will, determination, and 3 minimum wage jobs working a total of 85 hours a week.

http://ideas.time.co...-bootstrapping/


I am certain that your tongue is planted firmly in your cheek with this post. Trouble is so many of the "Reaganites" are believers - or are they Romney-ites? or Rubio-ites? or Ryan-ites?

Silly me. They are all Rand-ites. Seems like the love of Russians for the political right goes back a long, long ways. B-)
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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