[pdmunro]

I was wondering if there is a smart phone app for recording the play at my local bridge club. Something with a simple UI such as this. I envisage dummy doing the recording.

[barmar]

I'm not aware of anything like this.

But if you're going to enter all the plays in some kind of tablet, you might as well just use the tablet to play. Why require two steps, play a card then enter it into the device? Last year, Fred demonstrated a prototype of something he proposed for playing electronically with tablets in high-level bridge tournaments.

[pdmunro]

barmar, on 2017-February-07, 11:04, said:

I'm not aware of anything like this.

But if you're going to enter all the plays in some kind of tablet, you might as well just use the tablet to play. Why require two steps, play a card then enter it into the device? Last year, Fred demonstrated a prototype of something he proposed for playing electronically with tablets in high-level bridge tournaments.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree - tablets are also my preferred option, something I have wanted for many years. However, if it had a compelling use case, surely it would have been adopted in some clubs by now? So what is the barrier? I guess people want to feel the cards.

To start at the beginning, "Why do I want to record the cards?". The simple fact of the matter is that I prefer to play online, because then I can compare both my bidding and play with what happened at the other tables and, hence, see why I got the score I did. When I play at the club, it frustrates me not knowing what happened at the other tables. (Too many unknown, unknowns. ;-))

I have been trying to think through a way to record the card play at the table. My thoughts were in this order: scanning a barcode on the card, optical recognition*, back to barcode recognition, using an app (as per my original post above). Now, of course, it popped into my head that dummy could just write down the card play with pen and paper and enter it on a computer later (the cheapest method).

As I say, the frustration of not knowing what happened at the other tables and, hence, why I got the result I did, is one key factor that keeps me away from the club. I just wish the play could be easily recorded. Gnashing of teeth.

*I note that https://www.playbridgeworld.com/ has just released an app, https://play.google....dealer1.iDealer, that uses optical recognition to deal set hands at home. The results are collated and compared online.

[barmar]

There were some experiments done at world championships a couple of years ago, where a camera mounted above the table was connected to software that scanned the cards, so they could do Vugraph without a human operator. It didn't work well. I think there are still people working on new versions of this system.

[Vampyr]

pdmunro, on 2017-February-07, 19:07, said:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree - tablets are also my preferred option, something I have wanted for many years. However, if it had a compelling use case, surely it would have been adopted in some clubs by now? So what is the barrier? I guess people want to feel the cards.

Another obstacle is the question of who would provide the tablets.

Quote

To start at the beginning, "Why do I want to record the cards?". The simple fact of the matter is that I prefer to play online, because then I can compare both my bidding and play with what happened at the other tables and, hence, see why I got the score I did. When I play at the club, it frustrates me not knowing what happened at the other tables. (Too many unknown, unknowns. ;-))

Surely you can get a fair sampling at the club's bar or a local pub after the game.

Quote

I have been trying to think through a way to record the card play at the table. My thoughts were in this order: scanning a barcode on the card, optical recognition*, back to barcode recognition, using an app (as per my original post above). Now, of course, it popped into my head that dummy could just write down the card play with pen and paper and enter it on a computer later (the cheapest method).

I don't think that people would want to do any of this, particularly the last.

Quote

As I say, the frustration of not knowing what haxppened at the other tables and, hence, why I got the result I did, is one key factor that keeps me away from the club. I just wish the play could be easily recorded. Gnashing of teeth.

Why does it matter so much? You can look at your own results and discover how you could have done better, or why you did do well on a hand. And often the reasons for a result will be obvious if you look at the online travellers. I think that at all but the very top level of the game(and this is arguable too) a hand is won or lost in the bidding.

Also, it might help if your club required the opening lead to be entered, and included this in the online results. People sometimes forget or don't care, but most of the time they will at least enter the correct suit.

[pdmunro]

Vampyr, on 2017-February-08, 18:45, said:

Another obstacle is the question of who would provide the tablets.

Yes, a problem. Still tablets could perhaps be trialed on at least one table to see what the pluses are.

Quote

Surely you can get a fair sampling at the club's bar or a local pub after the game.

Hah, you have got an advantage over me there. Typically we, in Australia, drive to our club and head home straight afterwards. There's no convenient stroll to a pub.

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I don't think that people would want to do any of this, particularly the last.

Yes, it seems a bit of a chore to have a pencil and paper record. Perhaps, beginners when learning would do it - maybe, have a rotating kibitzer who does it?

Quote

Why does it matter so much? You can look at your own results and discover how you could have done better, or why you did do well on a hand. And often the reasons for a result will be obvious if you look at the online travellers. I think that at all but the very top level of the game(and this is arguable too) a hand is won or lost in the bidding.

Also, it might help if your club required the opening lead to be entered, and included this in the online results. People sometimes forget or don't care, but most of the time they will at least enter the correct suit.

Basically, I want to be able to do what I do when I play online: that is, compare my bidding and play with what happens at the other tables. I really learn a lot by doing this, and lack of this facility is one reason I rarely go to the local club any more. (The other main reason is the 4 hr time commitment required.) I just feel if there could be some simple means of automatically recording the play, that it would be a big plus for the clubs.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2017-February-08, 18:45, said:

Another obstacle is the question of who would provide the tablets.

One of the clubs I play at uses tablets as electronic scoring devices. So the same tablets could be used for entering the bidding and play.

[pdmunro]

Thx Barmar. I guess it's this software, http://bridgetab.com/. I'll try contacting them to see if they have considered adding functionality for dummy to record the play.

[Vampyr]

pdmunro, on 2017-February-10, 00:23, said:

Thx Barmar. I guess it's this software, http://bridgetab.com/. I'll try contacting them to see if they have considered adding functionality for dummy to record the play.

And for declarer to play does dummy's cards all night? This would get to be a pain. IMO.

[pdmunro]

Vampyr, on 2017-February-10, 00:52, said:

And for declarer to play does dummy's cards all night? This would get to be a pain. IMO.

I agree, but couldn't dummy do both jobs; play the requested card, then make a record with 2 taps (suit + value) on the tablet? I wonder if the whole play record could be reduced to 26 taps, by using the UI I suggested originally. If it were available, it's an app I would like to use when next I teach beginners.

PS I'm still pursuing an automated solution. I'm going to ask around the electronics workshops here in Brisbane, regarding how a cheap barcode scanner might be adapted.

PPS It's predicted to be 35C (95F) and 38C (100F) here on the weekend, so your suggestion of a "pub discussion" is starting to look a lot more inviting. :-)

[Vampyr]

pdmunro, on 2017-February-10, 01:37, said:

I agree, but couldn't dummy do both jobs; play the requested card, then make a record with 2 taps (suit + value) on the tablet? I wonder if the whole play record could be reduced to 26 taps, by using the UI I suggested originally. If it were available, it's an app I would like to use when next I teach beginners.

PS I'm still pursuing an automated solution. I'm going to ask around the electronics workshops here in Brisbane, regarding how a cheap barcode scanner might be adapted.

PPS It's predicted to be 35C (95F) and 38C (100F) here on the weekend, so your suggestion of a "pub discussion" is starting to look a lot more inviting. :-)

That would be best, really. The people who were more successful than you might, for example, have taken an inferior line and got lucky. You can learn a lot more by discussing hands with players who are better players than you. I also do not think that, in general, players or dummies would be willing to do extra work because, what, 5% of the players want to know what everyone else did? At the clubs I go to, the people who discuss the hands afterwards are a small percentage. Most people will not think about the hands again.

If you find some kind of app, perhaps you can persuade your like-minded friends to use it and leave everyone else alone. You could also input your own bidding and play into a single-dummy silver, and see what it comes up with.

Barmar, if you were using a tablet to play, every player would need one. You can't pass a device around and not let people see their cards except at their turn. Besides, if you are going to use a tablet or another device to play on, why not stay home and play online? Some people are starting to think of bridge as an online game that can also be played live. But this is actually a tiny minority of bridge players. For example, I know of only two people who play online semi-regularly, to test their system against robots or play matches against their teammates for international play.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2017-March-04, 22:28, said:

Barmar, if you were using a tablet to play, every player would need one. You can't pass a device around and not let people see their cards except at their turn.

True. I believe the system Fred demonstrated was like that.

At our club, a group of us usually go out to a pub after the game to get dinner and go through all the hands. Our games are small enough that we often have players from half to 2/3 the tables that played each board, so we can find out how most of the results happened without needing a separate record. Although sometimes a C player comes with us and they often can't remember what happened at their table. The funny thing is that from their result and knowing the kinds of mistakes novices make, we can usually reconstruct it.

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2017-March-05, 11:26, said:

True. I believe the system Fred demonstrated was like that.

At our club, a group of us usually go out to a pub after the game to get dinner and go through all the hands. Our games are small enough that we often have players from half to 2/3 the tables that played each board, so we can find out how most of the results happened without needing a separate record. Although sometimes a C player comes with us and they often can't remember what happened at their table. The funny thing is that from their result and knowing the kinds of mistakes novices make, we can usually reconstruct it.

Your local places serve food pretty late! But anyway, if you don't have a group of players, you can usually look at the hand records to try to work out how you could have done better or why you sc ores well.

[mycroft]

Heh, Denny's is your friend.

Having said that, lots of places serve food through 2330 or so. Unfortunately, most of those places also think they have to pump crappy music down at "can't talk about the hands" volumes, even if there are 13 people in the bar, 10 of them at the bridge table. Denny's isn't the greatest for food, but they're open 24 hours and don't pound the music; so that's where we go.

[barmar]

The place we go is Cambridge Common, they're open until 1am weekdays. It's not too loud in the restaurant/brewpub, there's an adjacent nightclub where the loud music plays. The pub has lots of TVs tuned to sports channels.

Yes, good players can generally recreate everything from the printed hand records, although occasionally when you're dummy you're not paying close attention (some people say that when they're dummy they deliberately avoid thinking too much about the hand, to save their energyt for the hands when they're needed).

[Vampyr]

Would love to,have Denny's, but the trouble is most people who go out after the game are interested in drinking rather than eating.

A place that is open until 1 isn't much help, since the tube would be finished by then. of course clubs with their own premises have a bar, and at least on Friday and Saturdybevenings the tube runs all night.

[barmar]

Our game ends at 10pm. The place we go has food and drink (lots of different beers, with many changing daily). We're usually done between midnight and 12:30, and the T runs until around 2am.

[mycroft]

Denny's is half-service (at least), so beer and wines (although not Cambridge Common-level selection, I can at least get the local "micro-"brew).

Transit in Calgary is...well, let's just say the people in Toronto (and Boston, and London, ...) gripe about how bad public transit is. I've learned to just laugh at them; sometimes it even looks like I'm agreeing. Yes, the C-Train runs "almost all night" (0430-~0200); but if you're off the train line at all, this is a good idea of your options (and not even "across town").

For those curious, yes, there's a bridge game at the start location. No, that isn't my house at the end...

One of our regular opponents would have a trip something like this (note that the leaving time is earlier. There's a reason for that...)