Help
Seem to have trouble with these hands and not sure of any conventions/adjustments which may help.
Thanks,
Ian
Page 1 of 1
How do I bid these hands?
#1
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 123
- Joined: 2006-February-23
- Gender:Male
Posted 2016-December-16, 19:30
Any ideas on how to bid these hands using 2/1. South is opening the bidding on both hands and is vulnerable.
Seem to have trouble with these hands and not sure of any conventions/adjustments which may help.
Thanks,
Ian
Seem to have trouble with these hands and not sure of any conventions/adjustments which may help.
Thanks,
Ian
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,168
- Joined: 2012-May-17
- Gender:Male
- Location:Cincinnati Unit 124
- Interests:Family, Travel, Bridge Tournaments and Writing. Youth Bridge
Posted 2016-December-16, 19:46
1 Might be
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
3♠(extras) - 3N/4♣ reaching either the NT game or possibl y 5♣
2 Might be:
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
4♣ (bidding out shape).
There are some gadgets that might help (from simple to complex):
1) the simplest is using an immediate jump to show 9= to 12- HCP (invitational values) and a 6 card+ suit. I do that with one partner. Better than WJS IMNO (never wrongsides the hand)
2) LISA or BART
3) Gazilli
Good Luck!
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
3♠(extras) - 3N/4♣ reaching either the NT game or possibl y 5♣
2 Might be:
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
4♣ (bidding out shape).
There are some gadgets that might help (from simple to complex):
1) the simplest is using an immediate jump to show 9= to 12- HCP (invitational values) and a 6 card+ suit. I do that with one partner. Better than WJS IMNO (never wrongsides the hand)
2) LISA or BART
3) Gazilli
Good Luck!
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
#3
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 342
- Joined: 2009-March-21
Posted 2016-December-16, 19:52
A lot depends on your version of 2/1. Some play a 2/1 bid is only invitational 'if' the suit is rebid.
#1 1S-2C-2S-3C all pass. Suit rebid so only invites.
#2 1S-1NT*(forcing)-2D-3C-4C-5C or pass
I like to use 1M-3m as 6+ suit invite.
#1 1S-3C all pass
#2 1S-2C-2D-3C-4C(5C if you are feeling lucky. Suit rebid so only invites.
#1 1S-2C-2S-3C all pass. Suit rebid so only invites.
#2 1S-1NT*(forcing)-2D-3C-4C-5C or pass
I like to use 1M-3m as 6+ suit invite.
#1 1S-3C all pass
#2 1S-2C-2D-3C-4C(5C if you are feeling lucky. Suit rebid so only invites.
#4
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 123
- Joined: 2006-February-23
- Gender:Male
Posted 2016-December-16, 20:18
SteveMoe, on 2016-December-16, 19:46, said:
1 Might be
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
3♠(extras) - 3N/4♣ reaching either the NT game or possibl y 5♣
2 Might be:
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
4♣ (bidding out shape).
There are some gadgets that might help (from simple to complex):
1) the simplest is using an immediate jump to show 9= to 12- HCP (invitational values) and a 6 card+ suit. I do that with one partner. Better than WJS IMNO (never wrongsides the hand)
2) LISA or BART
3) Gazilli
Good Luck!
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
3♠(extras) - 3N/4♣ reaching either the NT game or possibl y 5♣
2 Might be:
1♠ - 1N(Force)
2♦ - 3♣Inv
4♣ (bidding out shape).
There are some gadgets that might help (from simple to complex):
1) the simplest is using an immediate jump to show 9= to 12- HCP (invitational values) and a 6 card+ suit. I do that with one partner. Better than WJS IMNO (never wrongsides the hand)
2) LISA or BART
3) Gazilli
Good Luck!
Just wondering how Bart/Lisa or Gazilli would help these auctions? I have looked them up but can't find how they would help these hands. I also thought that 3C is not an invite but could be a weak bailout of spades.
#5
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,092
- Joined: 2016-July-31
- Gender:Female
Posted 2016-December-16, 20:48
These hands are quite difficult to bid if your agreements don't match the hands.
Any of the following would make North comfortable:
1S-2C-2D-3C not forcing
1S-3C invitational
1S-1NT-2D-3C invitational
It's plausible that you don't play any of them. In my most regular partnership, I play the first sequence forcing; the second one Bergen, and the third one sign-off so both of these hands are nightmare scenarios for responder. The second one I might upgrade to a GF 2C response simply because my alternatives are so awful. It likely goes 1S-2C-2D-3C-4H (splinter)-5C. If responder can't bring herself to bid 2C, the hand is far too good to bid 1NT forcing and then sign off in clubs, and might try to survive 1S-1NT-2D-2NT. On this hand it works out as South accepts the try and bids 3C on the way.
On the first hand, an unlikely to run club suit and void in partner's suit argues against forcing to game so you're stuck with 1S-1NT-2D-2NT or a 3C underbid. After 2NT, South bids 3S forcing and North tries 3NT knowing there's a misfit but hoping to make it on strength. If North chooses 3C, she plays 3C.
So, playing a system which makes the North hand unbiddable, we could land on our feet on both hands. You sometimes aren't playing the right agreements for the hands. Just do the best you can.
Someone will give you a convention that will work for this hand or tell you that their method makes your hand easy to bid. Next time, you may have an easy auction while their wonderful convention makes a seemingly routine pair of hands unbiddable.
Any of the following would make North comfortable:
1S-2C-2D-3C not forcing
1S-3C invitational
1S-1NT-2D-3C invitational
It's plausible that you don't play any of them. In my most regular partnership, I play the first sequence forcing; the second one Bergen, and the third one sign-off so both of these hands are nightmare scenarios for responder. The second one I might upgrade to a GF 2C response simply because my alternatives are so awful. It likely goes 1S-2C-2D-3C-4H (splinter)-5C. If responder can't bring herself to bid 2C, the hand is far too good to bid 1NT forcing and then sign off in clubs, and might try to survive 1S-1NT-2D-2NT. On this hand it works out as South accepts the try and bids 3C on the way.
On the first hand, an unlikely to run club suit and void in partner's suit argues against forcing to game so you're stuck with 1S-1NT-2D-2NT or a 3C underbid. After 2NT, South bids 3S forcing and North tries 3NT knowing there's a misfit but hoping to make it on strength. If North chooses 3C, she plays 3C.
So, playing a system which makes the North hand unbiddable, we could land on our feet on both hands. You sometimes aren't playing the right agreements for the hands. Just do the best you can.
Someone will give you a convention that will work for this hand or tell you that their method makes your hand easy to bid. Next time, you may have an easy auction while their wonderful convention makes a seemingly routine pair of hands unbiddable.
#6
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 11,277
- Joined: 2004-September-22
- Location:Northern Maryland
Posted 2016-December-16, 21:18
It is complicated by life not always being just.
I was thinking along the same lines after kibbing the following:
A team game, imps. At the other table a forcing NT auction had them playing in 3C, but at this table they landed in 3NT.
The opening lead was the heart 5 to the A, the 9 was returned won by the Q. It seemed pretty clear to us in the gallery that a spades should be played next, but a third heart was led and declarer scored up his game.
Honestly, even if I had the option of 1S-3C to show a natural invit, I am not so sure that I would have used it here. That N hand is pretty good. I gave the N hand to a f2f partner today. We do not play 2/1 gf, so bidding 2C and then 3C is passable. But even if that is so, I am not so sure that, as S, I would pass 1S-2C-2D-3C. S could have less.
My thinking is that if 1S-3C is natural and invit, an approach that can be useful when it arises, it should deny having two cards in the spade suit. So this hand and your example hands, qualify.
I think somewhere Mike Lawrence recommended just bidding the GF 2C and hoping for the best. This worked on the hand I was watching.
I was thinking along the same lines after kibbing the following:
A team game, imps. At the other table a forcing NT auction had them playing in 3C, but at this table they landed in 3NT.
The opening lead was the heart 5 to the A, the 9 was returned won by the Q. It seemed pretty clear to us in the gallery that a spades should be played next, but a third heart was led and declarer scored up his game.
Honestly, even if I had the option of 1S-3C to show a natural invit, I am not so sure that I would have used it here. That N hand is pretty good. I gave the N hand to a f2f partner today. We do not play 2/1 gf, so bidding 2C and then 3C is passable. But even if that is so, I am not so sure that, as S, I would pass 1S-2C-2D-3C. S could have less.
My thinking is that if 1S-3C is natural and invit, an approach that can be useful when it arises, it should deny having two cards in the spade suit. So this hand and your example hands, qualify.
I think somewhere Mike Lawrence recommended just bidding the GF 2C and hoping for the best. This worked on the hand I was watching.
Ken
#7
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,168
- Joined: 2012-May-17
- Gender:Male
- Location:Cincinnati Unit 124
- Interests:Family, Travel, Bridge Tournaments and Writing. Youth Bridge
Posted 2016-December-16, 21:59
hirowla, on 2016-December-16, 20:18, said:
Just wondering how Bart/Lisa or Gazilli would help these auctions? I have looked them up but can't find how they would help these hands. I also thought that 3C is not an invite but could be a weak bailout of spades.
Check out Lisa and why at: http://www.bridgeguy...a_neil_timm.pdf
also
http://bridgewinners.../bart-modified/
With a weak hand (5-7 HCP) bidding to the 3-level through a forcing 1N should show invitational values. Weak hands use WJS directly.
Gazilli focuses on opener's hand, making responder's job easier: http://bridgewinners...n-introduction/
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
#8
- VIP Member
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 6,971
- Joined: 2009-November-14
- Gender:Male
- Location:Houston, TX
Posted 2016-December-17, 03:39
With the methods I play
1- 1♠-----3♣ (invitational 6+ cards no ♠ fit-----3 NT----Pass
2- 1♠-----3♣--continuation may vary but I will end up in 3 NT or 5 ♣. I am not confident to spot the 5♣ and stay away from 3 NT. But 3 NT is not hopeless. Lead can be under the ♥K or ♣ finesse may work.
1- 1♠-----3♣ (invitational 6+ cards no ♠ fit-----3 NT----Pass
2- 1♠-----3♣--continuation may vary but I will end up in 3 NT or 5 ♣. I am not confident to spot the 5♣ and stay away from 3 NT. But 3 NT is not hopeless. Lead can be under the ♥K or ♣ finesse may work.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#9
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 2,866
- Joined: 2008-July-13
Posted 2016-December-17, 10:33
Bart/lisa is irrelevant on this hand
#10
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,366
- Joined: 2013-August-03
- Gender:Female
- Location:Variable private
- Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.
Posted 2016-December-18, 09:55
Hand 1; 1S-2C
2S-3C This sequence is played by many as showing 10/11 HCP and long clubs and is passable.After opener learns that he should not give any value to JS and degrade the doubleton QJ.Diamond K may be useful.But even then the hand provides only 3 tricks and partner cant be expected to furnish 8 tricks ruling out a 5 C contract.Hence 3 C has to be passed.On some day 3NT or 5 C will make if clubs behave but one can not sneak a look at North hand.
Hand-2; 1S-2C
2D-3C Compared to the previous South hand the D-AKQ,three trumps to the Queen AND a singleton heart to provide a ruff or two plus the fact that partner cannot hold more than xx in spades is definitely worth a bid of 4C if not 5C..Personally,being a wee bit aggressive,I shall bid 5C .
2S-3C This sequence is played by many as showing 10/11 HCP and long clubs and is passable.After opener learns that he should not give any value to JS and degrade the doubleton QJ.Diamond K may be useful.But even then the hand provides only 3 tricks and partner cant be expected to furnish 8 tricks ruling out a 5 C contract.Hence 3 C has to be passed.On some day 3NT or 5 C will make if clubs behave but one can not sneak a look at North hand.
Hand-2; 1S-2C
2D-3C Compared to the previous South hand the D-AKQ,three trumps to the Queen AND a singleton heart to provide a ruff or two plus the fact that partner cannot hold more than xx in spades is definitely worth a bid of 4C if not 5C..Personally,being a wee bit aggressive,I shall bid 5C .
Page 1 of 1