[Cascade]

1♠ Pass 2♠ 3♦
Pass ?

What do you need for 3♦?

How strong/weak is 3♦?

[flytoox]

This dependes so much on vul.

[Cascade]

Cascade, on Apr 15 2005, 11:18 AM, said:

1♠ Pass 2♠ 3♦
Pass ?

What do you need for 3♦?

How strong/weak is 3♦?

Whoops I meant to ask what do you need for 3NT?

[Cascade]

flytoox, on Apr 15 2005, 11:28 AM, said:

This dependes so much on vul.

I am interested in any vul.

The problem came up when 3♦ was vul vs not which is the most constructive but I am interested in general principles.

[whereagles]

Principle: after 1M pass 2M, game is unlikely for the other line. Thus, all bids are competitive, eventually with reopening strenght, even if given in direct seat.

To try for a game, one needs fit plus aces, e.g.

Axx
Axx
Qxx
Axxx

1S pass 2S 3D (could be as low as 8 points!)
pass 3NT

[flytoox]

I think the question "what do you need for 3D" is more difficult than the question "what do you need for 3N". The answer to the 2nd question is pretty much like whereagles's answer, sth you think u can make 3N, which presumably should include good fit for pd's suit and expect it to run, though I dont expect such a good hand as he gave.

[mr1303]

There was one hand that came up where we scored a bottom. I held:

Axxx
KQTx
Qxxx
x

And the bidding went (dealer on my right)

1H P 2H 3C

ANd I condsidered my hand an automatic pass of 3C. 3NT and 5C were ice cold.

[mike777]

Cascade, on Apr 14 2005, 06:18 PM, said:

1♠ Pass 2♠ 3♦
Pass ?

What do you need for 3♦?

How strong/weak is 3♦?

OBAR

Take a look at playing OBAR, which is "weakish" not game invite. If not for you then you can play these bids are solid hands, not weakish. In any event you will now have a much better partnership understanding.

[P_Marlowe]

3D could be anything.

It could be weak, suggesting
a sacr, it could be to play.

to bid 3 NT to make, you need
a stopper in their suit, 2 Quick
Tricks, all other suit stopped
and support for partner, because
partners suit should be worth 6
Tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pclayton]

Playing 3♦ as wide range as most of us do, precise bidding is difficult. Pard will stick in 3♦ with short spades, OR xxx or xxxx expecting shortness in our hand.

[han]

Me neither, I want partner to bid 3D as often as he dares.

[Fluffy]

3NT with 13+ and 4♠, and a ♦ honnor. I think.

More or less the same than 1♠-3♦-pass-3NT.

[the hog]

"3D could be anything.

It could be weak, suggesting
a sacr, it could be to play."

I definitely disagree with this assertion. If 3D "could be anything", how on earth can your partner bid sensibly. 3D as a weak bid is a futile Willy bid anyway, as the opps can always outbid you in the Major. What are you sacrificing against, 2S?

Vulnerability matters for what I need to bid 3NT.

Vul

Kxx
Axx
Qxx
xxxx

is enough for me.
Nv also need C Ace.

[Double !]

Judging from many other responses, my thinking/ reasoning on this topic might be obsolete but.......I think 3D should be constructive (as opposed to: "could be anything"), at least on this bidding for 3 reasons. 1) One of the opps has already limited his/her hand giving opener more of a fielder's choice and more options if I now bid. 2) My partner is listening and will probably need to make a competitive decision after the opps bid again. 3) If 3D could be anything and we will almost never bid 3NT, then isn't there the potential for being robbed blind by light initial action by the opps: maintaining a standard for the 3D bid should help prevent this. Not to mention the fact that one has has contracted for nine tricks by bidding 3 diamonds: the hand should have some values, maybe?.........
(Not vul. I like to play 13-16 1NT overcalls. They help with situations such as this.)

[jdulmage]

I expect some honors - partner won't do it with say 5 to the 9♦, but if it isn't vul, it could be as bad as QJ9, if he is vul, it will be AQ10 or better. So I would only bid 3NT with 3♦ support to an honor and outside stoppers in every suit.

[P_Marlowe]

The_Hog, on Apr 15 2005, 11:16 PM, said:

"3D could be anything.

It could be weak, suggesting
a sacr, it could be to play."

I definitely disagree with this assertion. If 3D "could be anything", how on earth can your partner bid sensibly. 3D as a weak bid is a futile Willy bid anyway, as the opps can always outbid you in the Major. What are you sacrificing against, 2S?

Vulnerability matters for what I need to bid 3NT.

Vul

Kxx
Axx
Qxx
xxxx

is enough for me.
Nv also need C Ace.

Hi,

If your aim with the 3D was to suggest a sacrify,
than the suggestion is to sacrify against 4S, if partners
hand fits. In this case it will be a normal 3D preempt.
But it could also be stronger, it could be a "tactical" bid,
to buy the contract.
Usually you will know, what it is, if you look at your
hand and take the bidding by the oppossitions into
account.

Of course vul. plays a role, the hand will look different
green versus red oppossite to red versus green.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you look at your hand, and also look at my descr.
of a hand, which bids 3NT to make, especially if you add
the C Ace, ... well what is the difference?

[Fluffy]

I am also on the ones who think non jump overcalls are always constructive, if you wanna suggest a 5♦ sacrifice bid 4♦.

There is a problem at match points, where you can't let them play 2♠, and you have to bid when you are the guy with the ♠ shortness, but at IMPs its clear.