[m1cha]

Yesterday in the "Free Daylong tournament (MP) - 2016-10-05", Board 1. Here is the link:

http://tinyurl.com/jk9lnq5

I thought of doubling 3♥ already, checked the label and found out a double was indeed a penalty double. But then I wasn't sure if I could beat the contract and I thought I could drive opps a stage higher and double them there. Things went as expected - until partner ran from my double of 4♥. To be fair, my double of 4♥ did not promise a particular number of cards in ♥, iirc. But if a double of 3 is a penalty double, shouldn't a double of 4 be a penalty double, too? And even if my double had been a take-out double I believe partner should have passed this holding KT97 in opponents' suit. 15 of 96 players here went down 2 for -300 instead of bringing opponents down 5 for +1100.

[lycier]

Hi M1cha

Now let's see your Gib hand.

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Now you can see there is no definition on your double.
Remember that Gib partner usually help you to escape to some suit contract. That's my experience.
Fortunately,today I got a Gib hand as my evidence.

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Even without 3-card ♠ :

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Only if Gib really has no 3-card ♠ and no other 4-card minor suit, then you can fortunately get your penalty double.

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[lycier]

So pass is your best auction.

[jdonn]

The making of bad penalty doubles by GIB as well as the pulling of partner's penalty doubles are very sad, but too complicated to be fixed any time soon.

[m1cha]

Thanks, lycier.

lycier, on 2016-October-07, 00:17, said:

Now you can see there is no definition on your double.

Yes, and that is part of my point because a double of 3♥ did have a definition as a penalty double. "2+♥", iirc.

lycier, on 2016-October-07, 00:17, said:

Remember that Gib partner usually help you to escape to some suit contract. That's my experience.
Only if Gib really has no 3-card ♠ and no other 4-card minor suit, then you can fortunately get your penalty double.

I see, good to know. Though I wouldn't always call that "help to escape".

lycier, on 2016-October-07, 00:17, said:

So pass is your best auction.

Yes.

[m1cha]

Thanks for your answer, jdonn.

jdonn, on 2016-October-07, 15:55, said:

The making of bad penalty doubles by GIB as well as the pulling of partner's penalty doubles are very sad, but too complicated to be fixed any time soon.

I was afraid it would be. Bidding in bridge isn't easy, but doubles are twice as difficult.

[Stefan_O]

jdonn, on 2016-October-07, 15:55, said:

The making of bad penalty doubles by GIB as well as the pulling of partner's penalty doubles are very sad, but too complicated to be fixed any time soon.

Looks like you all missed the proverbial elephant in the room here...

How on earth can West raise to 4H????
Ridiculous.

[m1cha]

Stefan_O, on 2016-October-08, 17:06, said:

Looks like you all missed the proverbial elephant in the room here...

How on earth can West raise to 4H????
Ridiculous.

Not really. Maybe the idea is: It is better THEY play 4♥ going down 8 non-vulnerable and undoubled (!) than let US play 4♥ and we make it.

Ok, serious now. It is not as rediculous as it seems at first glance because East with its bid of 3♥ promised "rebiddable ♥" which is a good 5-card suit. East lied about the ♥ length, and so did West. This is why they end up in a 4-2 fit.

East also promised 18 - 22 total points. West has 6 total points, namely ♦A and two doubletons in partner's two long suits (including the trump suit). 22 + 6 = 28, so it's only logical to raise to game. (Ooops, I did it again.)

I believe it is part of a strategy. The following happens to me quite often: Robot partner opens 1m, I bid 1M, robot raises to 2M. I systematically raise to 4M because it's "best hand" and we always should have game. Then I find out partner raised me with a 3-card suit, and I go down 1 or even 2 playing in a Moysian while 3NT would have been cold. I am not sure now if that only happens when opponents bid (and opener fails to bid 1NT perhaps because of a missing stop) or if it also occurs in undisturbed bidding. But it's part of the system. The "GIB System Notes" read "Raising responder's suit usually promises 4 cards, but will occasionally raise with only 3". I doubt "occasionally". Anyway, I find it difficult to imagine why this is how it's done. Because if I am interested in opener's 3-card support I have means to find it.

But this is a different topic.

[Andy_L]

jdonn, on 2016-October-07, 15:55, said:

The making of bad penalty doubles by GIB as well as the pulling of partner's penalty doubles are very sad, but too complicated to be fixed any time soon.

[1eyedjack]

And your point is?