[Shugart23]

This is real simple......Under ACBL rules, can the 2C bid be a totally artificial waiting bid (as long as it is alerted), telling Opener that game force is on and to further describe his hand ?

[pran]

Shugart23, on 2016-August-07, 12:57, said:

This is real simple......Under ACBL rules, can the 2C bid be a totally artificial waiting bid (as long as it is alerted), telling Opener that game force is on and to further describe his hand ?

I shall be most surprised if ACBL has any restriction here. According to my information WBF has none.

[1eyedjack]

I cannot comment on its legality and leave that to others. But assuming legal I have some concerns about meeting the required disclosure requirements. Are you saying that all other responses below game deny GF values. If not there are distinctions to be drawn, which could be time consuming and inconvenient and a disincentive to full disclosure

[Shugart23]

1eyedjack, on 2016-August-07, 13:12, said:

I cannot comment on its legality and leave that to others. But assuming legal I have some concerns about meeting the required disclosure requirements. Are you saying that all other responses below game deny GF values. If not there are distinctions to be drawn, which could be time consuming and inconvenient and a disincentive to full disclosure

No, not saying that....1H-2D is game forcing....1H-1S - may eventually be game forcing .....But I am wondering if the 1H-2C sequence could be made on a void in Clubs

[blackshoe]

pran, on 2016-August-07, 13:11, said:

I shall be most surprised if ACBL has any restriction here. According to my information WBF has none.

You shouldn't be surprised at any silly thing the ACBL might do.

That said, Item 3 under "Responses and Rebids" on the GCC says "3. CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME FORCING
OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system."

So 2♣ conventional is allowed if it's GF and not the beginning of a sequence of relays.

[Shugart23]

Thanks Blackshoe.....let me ask a follow up ......Suppose thed 2C is NOT a game force, but IS the beginning of a set of relay questions which at some point the Responder learns enough to stop short of game....specifically:

1H-2C -2H...Opener has a horrible hand and Responder can pass at 2H or

1H-2C -2D (or 2S)...Opener has a good hand and a second suit and now Responder begins a series of BETA, GAMMA, EPSILON asking bids or

1H-2C - 2H (bad hand) -2NT- tell me more anyway)--bids naturally - Responder sets final contract

Legal even if Responder is void in Clubs ?

[steve2005]

Shugart23, on 2016-August-07, 13:57, said:

Thanks Blackshoe.....let me ask a follow up ......Suppose thed 2C is NOT a game force, but IS the beginning of a set of relay questions which at some point the Responder learns enough to stop short of game....specifically:

1H-2C -2H...Opener has a horrible hand and Responder can pass at 2H or

1H-2C -2D (or 2S)...Opener has a good hand and a second suit and now Responder begins a series of BETA, GAMMA, EPSILON asking bids or

1H-2C - 2H (bad hand) -2NT- tell me more anyway)--bids naturally - Responder sets final contract

Legal even if Responder is void in Clubs ?

As Blackshoe said 2♣ needs to be GF if you want it to be artificial in ACBLland under GCC.
ACBL in its infinite wisdom doesn't allow Drury type bids after 1st/2nd seat opening.

[Shugart23]

I am not reading the rule to say that....I am reading the rule to say that IF the 2C conventional response is a GF bid, then it can't be part of a relay system...The rule is silent about if the 2C conventional response is NOT game force..........I don't see that the 2C bid is required to be a GF bid

[steve2005]

Shugart23, on 2016-August-07, 16:36, said:

I am not reading the rule to say that....I am reading the rule to say that IF the 2C conventional response is a GF bid , then it can't be part of a relay system...The rule is silent about if the 2C conventional response is NOT game force..........I don't see that the 2C bid is required to be a GF bid

your misreading it there is a period end of sentence. so must be GF. Additionally cant be part of a relay system. (even if GF)

[TylerE]

Shugart23, on 2016-August-07, 16:36, said:

I am not reading the rule to say that....I am reading the rule to say that IF the 2C conventional response is a GF bid, then it can't be part of a relay system...The rule is silent about if the 2C conventional response is NOT game force..........I don't see that the 2C bid is required to be a GF bid

That's simple. One of the very first lines is "anything not specifically allowed is disallowed". So silence = banned.

[blackshoe]

Item 5 under "Definitions: A sequence of relay bids is defined as a system if, after an opening of one of a suit, it is started prior to opener’s rebid.

Item 5 under "Disallowed": Relay(tellmemore)systems.

Relay systems are not permitted under the GCC.

[Shugart23]

thanks all..., so it sounds like my 2C bid needs to be 'natural' (holding 3+ clubs) at which point, Opener bids naturally, or throws up a warning flag (by rebidding Hearts). By virtue of my initial 'natural' 2C bid, my 2nd bid can then initiate a variety of asking bids. Assuming everyone agrees on this, here is question #2.

Opener bids 1H, Responder bids 1S and Opener alerts and when asked, says "Responder probably has 4+ Spades, but is only promising 3".....legal ?

[Zelandakh]

Shugart23, on 2016-August-08, 05:19, said:

Opener bids 1H, Responder bids 1S and Opener alerts and when asked, says "Responder probably has 4+ Spades, but is only promising 3".....legal ?

No, this does not meet the requirements for natural.

Quote

An opening suit bid or response is considered natural if in a minor it shows three or more cards in that suit and in a major it shows four or more cards in that suit.

[Shugart23]

One more final question on the 1H-2C bid.....So ACBL allows the 2C to be totally artificial (could be void) if it is a game force bid and not part of a relay system...ACBL also allows the 2C to be a natural bid, holding 3+ Clubs and not necessarily game forcing......Can the 2C bid be either simultaneously, where the path becomes apparent on Responder's second bid ? I suspect I am going to hear a chorus of "NO!", but I have to ask

[blackshoe]

No.

[Shugart23]

I appreciate the rule's clarifications, guys...The reason I am asking is because we are playing a canapé system this year and so, for example, when partner opens 1D, I ABSOLUTEY know she doesn't have a 4 card Major, so it is totally lame for me, as Responder to name my 4 card Major...Naming a 3 card Major (looking for the 5-3 canapé fit) is what makes sense....So up until last week, we simply have been alerting the Responder's 1M bid...oh well, Rules are rules and so I have to adjust.

I have 3 more questions:

Partner opens 1H...If Partner's and my agreement is I Respond 1S with 6-12, promising 5 cards in the suit, otherwise I bid 1NT (6-12) must a) Opener alert my 1S bid because it shows 5+ and b)must Opener alert my 1NT response because it May contain a 4 card Major . Simply because Standard American methods bid up the line, does this put the onus on me to alert ? ( I don't mind/care if I have to...just want to know the rule...

Thirdly, If Opener bids 1D and I respond 1NT, I am promising 3+ cards in both Majors...Is this alterable ?

[barmar]

Pairs who play Flannery respond like that to 1♥, and I don't think they're required to alert them.