[bridgepali]

I find when the 5/3 requisite trump footprint is 5/4 or 6/3, three fewer points (The value of one trick.) are needed to make a bid level. In other words, a three level (pt. range 23-25) contract can be made with 20-22 pts.; a four level (pt. range 26-28) contract with 23-25 pts.

Example:

---

Bidquest:
Abiding by the 5cardMABBS South opens declaring having five hearts and at least 13 pts. North responds at the three level (pt. range 23-25) declaring having 11-12 pts. (8 high card and 3 card formation) and enough hearts to fill out the 5/3 requisite trump footprint. South perceiving the 5/3 requisite trump footprint is satisfied and the combined hand's have 23 pts., with the 4 pts. not declared in the opening bid, bids hearts at the four level (pt. range 26-28).

I also find that when the requisite trump footprint has three cards in one of the combined hands with over five cards in the other, 3 pts. can be added to that hand's point count for each card over five.

Watch for Talking Pts.????

[manudude03]

4333 is a terrible shape, I tend to treat that as 3 card support even if I do have 4 card support. Also, that is a terrible overcall. I can tolerate double, but 1S is sick.

[TylerE]

The less you think about point counts the better your bidding will become. This is 1940s thinking.

[1eyedjack]

I find it hard to understand the relevance of the example hands in these "talking pts" threads, to the issue raised in the OP in each case.

To paraphrase, the running theme seems to be:

"To bid effectively you need to make some adjustments (as suggested herein) to your HCP, based on distribution, and to illustrate the point here is a hand that has been bid poorly, to the wrong contract, which may or may not have employed the principles discussed."

OK, but why?

[nullve]

bridgepali, on 2016-June-15, 13:55, said:

I find when the 5/3 requisite trump footprint is 5/4 or 6/3, three fewer points (The value of one trick.) are needed to make a bid level. In other words, a three level (pt. range 23-25) contract can be made with 20-22 pts.; a four level (pt. range 26-28) contract with 23-25 pts.

If points are nothing but tricks times a constant (3 or whatever), then the number of points needed make a contract (at a certain level) can't possibly depend on the degree of fit (5-3, 5-4, 6-3, ...) unless the degree of fit is everything. (And it's not.)

[johnu]

bridgepali, on 2016-June-15, 13:55, said:

North responds at the three level (pt. range 23-25) declaring having 11-12 pts. (8 high card and 3 card formation) and enough hearts to fill out the 5/3 requisite trump footprint.

....

Watch for Talking Pts.????

North hand evaluates to 11-12 points ???

One talking point may be: Who thinks the North hand is worth 11-12 points?

[m1cha]

bridgepali, on 2016-June-15, 13:55, said:

Abiding by the 5cardMABBS South opens declaring having five hearts and at least 13 pts. North responds at the three level (pt. range 23-25) declaring having 11-12 pts. (8 high card and 3 card formation) and enough hearts to fill out the 5/3 requisite trump footprint. South perceiving the 5/3 requisite trump footprint is satisfied and the combined hand's have 23 pts., with the 4 pts. not declared in the opening bid, bids hearts at the four level (pt. range 26-28).

This is an obvious misunderstanding.

Beginners of natural systems learn that the sequence 1♥ - 3♥ shows an invitational hand with trump support and typically 11 - 12 points. Beginners also use this bid when opponents intervene but later they learn that those hands are shown by overcalling opponent's suit. So
1♥ (1♠) 2♠
promises trump support in ♥ and ~ 11+ points. If you play this,
1♥ (1♠) 3♥
must show something else, often a weak hand with additional trump support according the Law of Total Tricks. North bids 3♥ here with a weak hand because of 4 cards in ♥, not only 3 cards. South should usually not bid more unless the South hand is very strong. Sometimes South should bid more with a suitable hand if opponents bid over 3♥.

So what should South do with this hand?
1♥ (p) 3♥ (p): 4♥ is perfect, accepting the invitation.
1♥ (1♠) 2♠ (p): 4♥ also, same thing.
1♥ (1♠) 3♥ (p): PASS because North is weak.
1♥ (p) 2♥ (p): 3♥ or a new suit in order to invite to game. A little bit risky but the hand is strong enough for an invitation.
1♥ (1♠) 2♥ (p): pass now because the ♠K looks worthless, the strong spades are behind you.

bridgepali, on 2016-June-15, 13:55, said:

I also find that when the requisite trump footprint has three cards in one of the combined hands with over five cards in the other, 3 pts. can be added to that hand's point count for each card over five.

3 points sounds too much to me if you also count points for short suits, but 1 or 2 points can be justified.

[Vampyr]

1eyedjack, on 2016-June-15, 21:33, said:

I find it hard to understand the relevance of the example hands in these "talking pts" threads, to the issue raised in the OP in each case.

To paraphrase, the running theme seems to be:

"To bid effectively you need to make some adjustments (as suggested herein) to your HCP, based on distribution, and to illustrate the point here is a hand that has been bid poorly, to the wrong contract, which may or may not have employed the principles discussed."

OK, but why?

Maybe the OP has been taught the methods he writes about, and wonders why they work so badly? He wants advice on hand evaluation maybe?

Also to the OP: your practice of assigning a point value to a three-level contract is misguided. You don't bid to the three level just for fun; you do it when trying for a game or when you are competing.

Anyway, if you continue to evaluate flat 8-counts as 11-12, and accepting game invitations with a flat 13, as you did in another one of your threads, you will continue to reach dreadful contracts.

[msjennifer]

In this the modern age of bridge one does not give much importance to HCP's which come into action mostly in balanced hands.There are other things to be considered like guard in the four suits, voids/ singletons/ doubletons ,PFA,LTC and other innumerable ones.HCP count is only a rough guide for beginners learning bridge.as they are not still experienced enough to digest things which are too complicated as they think.One has to tell them the famous hand where 35 HCP in a partnership can not win even a single trick to defeat a sacrificial grand slam in a suit with only Five HCP bid by the opponents.HCP lose their grandeur in suit contracts
where the distribution rules the game.Experience over years only makes one wise to face the challenges one faces in distributional hands.