[kenberg]

I'll give a hand, and consider options under two (or more) conventional agreements.

First I suppose that 2D is waiting.

---

We have not had extensive discussions, but surely 4D would be taken as a splinter, alternatively 3H would be taken as stronger than 4H. If I bid 4D I have to be prepared for 4H from partner. If this happens, do I bid 5C? If I instead bid 3H the auction might proceed 3H-3S-4C-4D or it might proceed 3H-3S-3C-4H or otherwise.

In short, I have to think what I do next.


Ok, now suppose we are playing controls. A 2H response shows one ace and no kings or two kings and no aces. We have:

---

Is this better or worse than playing 2D waiting? I have shown 2 controls but I have not yet shown heart support or my stiff diamond. I suppose I now raise 3H to 4H, right?


No doubt it is best, on this hand, if we are playing that 2D is a general positive response. 2C-2D (showing values somewhere)-2H (showing hearts) would be a good start.

My primary interest is in how to bid this hand playing 2C-2D waiting, and how to bid it playing 2C-2H controls. Partner and I now play waiting, he mentioned at one time an interest in playing controls.

[mgoetze]

 kenberg, on 2016-March-06, 07:43, said:

We have not had extensive discussions, but surely 4D would be taken as a splinter, alternatively 3H would be taken as stronger than 4H. If I bid 4D I have to be prepared for 4H from partner. If this happens, do I bid 5C?

No, of course not. You just barely have the values for 4♦ - in fact if I had not passed already I would wonder whether I am strong enough to bid it at all - so what reason could you possibly have to not respect partner's decision?

[Zelandakh]

4♦ is indeed a splinter - you have to agree the acceptable range for this but make sure it is not too wide. Typically it shows the top of the range unwilling to make a try beyond 4♥ (or a much stronger hand).

4♥ shows some values but denies an ace (traditional style) or, optionally, a key card. With a weaker hand you start with 2NT and continue with 4♥. The corollary to this is that 3♥ promises not only values but also an ace (or ♥K if playing it that way).

As for the auctions, after 4♦ it is clear to respect partner's sign off. If you felt you were too good for this you are also not within the correct range for 4♦. After 2♥, the 4♥ rebid looks correct although I have never played CAB responses so take that with caution. I have to say that I think the concept behind them is flawed. In a cramped auction it is important to begin showing shape rather than pre-empting the auction even more.

[kenberg]

Zel responded while I was typing this response, but I think it can be seen as a reply to both. Over 4D opener would not rebid 4H, but I presented it this way because when I was considering 4D versus 3H I of course didn't know pard was as strong as he was.

 mgoetze, on 2016-March-06, 07:50, said:

No, of course not. You just barely have the values for 4♦ - in fact if I had not passed already I would wonder whether I am strong enough to bid it at all - so what reason could you possibly have to not respect partner's decision?

Right. Thinking this way, I opted for the less descriptive 3H. thinking that it gave more room to sort things out. As the hands were, this time, partner would not have bid 4H over 4D. The issue, on this deal, was whether we should be in 6 or 7. I expect that 4D might have got us to 7, a reasonable but not certain contract. It turns out that my doubleton spade is important, but so is my fourth heart. The 4D would show that, the 3H not. Here are the hands:

---

This would be a good grand even if the spade Jack were the deuce (well, the 3 since I have the deuce), so we should be there I think. It was a club game and no one was in 7, but it was mps and surely 7 is more than 50%. If spades are 4-3 (and diamonds no worse than 6-3) we are home and even if spades are 5-2 the short spade hand might not hold the heart ten. Of course no bidding system discloses that my top heart is the 9 instead of the 7 but still we should be there.

But how? After 2C-2D-2H-4D I suppose 4NT- one key-7H, trusting that at worst a spade finesse needs to work, But we want to be there with AKx of spades also, and that may be tougher. 5NT over my one key response would ask my opinion but I am not sure what that opinion is.



And now back to control responses. How do we get there after 2C-2H-3H?

[wank]

control showing responses are too bad to bother giving an answer for.

it's like saying, 'what would you bid if you had taken half the bidding cards out of your box before the start to give yourself a handicap?"

[nullve]

 wank, on 2016-March-06, 09:25, said:

control showing responses are too bad to bother giving an answer for.

it's like saying, 'what would you bid if you had taken half the bidding cards out of your box before the start to give yourself a handicap?"

Found this summary of the Ultimate Club:

http://bridgefiles.n...mate%20Club.htm

[kenberg]

 nullve, on 2016-March-06, 11:51, said:

Found this summary of the Ultimate Club:

http://bridgefiles.n...mate%20Club.htm

Yes, but the control showing bids there are in response to an artificial 1C, a whole different ball of wax.

[Zelandakh]

 kenberg, on 2016-March-06, 09:19, said:

But how?

This is one of those rare hands where a SSA can help you. After Responder shows 1 key card, North continues with 5♠ asking specifically about partner's spade holding. The response then shows a doubleton (5NT for me) and you have enough information to bid the grand with reasonable confidence.

[kenberg]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-March-06, 13:06, said:

This is one of those rare hands where a SSA can help you. After Responder shows 1 key card, North continues with 5♠ asking specifically about partner's spade holding. The response then shows a doubleton (5NT for me) and you have enough information to bid the grand with reasonable confidence.

Yes. Kantar suggest such a device in his book about RKC. As you note, it doesn't come up much. I have never played this with anyone, but I am sure it has merit. No downside really, except you have to learn it, partner has to learn it, and you both have to remember it.

[Phil]

This is about the 10,000th example I have seen where control responses suck.

edit, but if youre going to play them at least have some sensible agreements like switching 3C and 3H.

[SteveMoe]

2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 3♥ showing control card
3♠ - 4♣
4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 5♦
7♥

[SteveMoe]

Alternatively:
1♣ - 1♦ <7 HCP
2♥ - 3♥ xxxx in ♥
3♠ - 4♣ 3rd round ♠ control
4♦ - 4N 2nd round ♦ control
5♣ - 5N 1st round ♣ control
7♥

[kenberg]

 Phil, on 2016-March-06, 16:47, said:

This is about the 10,000th example I have seen where control responses suck.

edit, but if you're going to play them at least have some sensible agreements like switching 3C and 3H.

This is the way it has seemed to me. I play them on request but it has always seemed like a disaster in waiting, and this hand is the sort of thing I expect. It's a very everyday sort of hand.

So, if nothing else, this posting gives support to my effort to discourage playing the convention.

Thanks.


I will suggest that we work through more detailed agreements for the waiting 2D. Way back, in the late 70s I think, Bobby Goldman published Aces Scientific with some decent suggestions that, among other pluses, seemed to be logical and so easy to remember.

[Phil]

2♣ - 2♦
2♥- 2♠ - (Kokish)
3♣ - 4♦ - Hearts + splinter
4♠ - 4N - KB / 1430
5N - 7♥ - 3rd round ask in spades / got it

Now, I'd like to think responder would still go with the ♣K, but this face AKJx AKQxx AQx x, so there
s no guarantees.

[mike777]

4D Splinter seems fine. I note you are a passed hand.

I will assume 2d=gf and random A or K.


getting to 7 seems easy now, lets not worry about spades.

[kenberg]

 Phil, on 2016-March-06, 19:55, said:

2♣ - 2♦
2♥- 2♠ - (Kokish)
3♣ - 4♦ - Hearts + splinter
4♠ - 4N - KB / 1430
5N - 7♥ - 3rd round ask in spades / got it

Now, I'd like to think responder would still go with the ♣K, but this face AKJx AKQxx AQx x, so there
s no guarantees.

You are saying that 3♣shows hearts only? It once showed hearts and clubs.This would help solve the crowding problem that 3♥ causes. I am not playing Kokish with this particular partner but I have played it. The 3♣ still shows clubs and hearts as I now play Kokish, but I am open minded.

[lycier]

After opening strong 2♣, there are 3 ways to show 2♦ :
1- playing as waiting bid
2- playing as controls
3- playing as positive response

The worse way is as waiting bid, it is a wasteful bidding style, generally speaking, it promises 0-7 hcp in the past, now you see it is really tough to show the hand precisely.
Who play waiting bid? Who is willing to play waiting bid?

[kenberg]

 lycier, on 2016-March-07, 07:55, said:

After opening strong 2♣, there are 3 ways to show 2♦ :
1- playing as waiting bid
2- playing as controls
3- playing as positive response

The worse way is as waiting bid, it is a wasteful bidding style, generally speaking, it promises 0-7 hcp in the past, now you see it is really tough to show the hand precisely.
Who play waiting bid? Who is willing to play waiting bid?

Last question first: I play waiting 2♦. I have also played controls. I prefer waiting to controls. There seems to be considerable support for this preference, at least among these two choices, in the above responses. I allow that option 3, the 2♦ as a positive response, may be better than either waiting or controls. I am cautious, however. For example, playing waiting you can have the following auction: 2♣-2♦-2♥-3♣-3♦-3♥.
At this point opener knows that responder has pretty much nothing in points but does have at least something of a heart fit. If this suffices, he can bid 4♥. If not, he can pass. Playing 2♦ as positive the auction, with this same weak hand, begins 2♣-2♥ and I am not sure how it goes from there. Not easily, I think.

With the current hand, if 2♦ is positive I suppose ot begins 2♣-2♦, since surely an ace is enough for positive. Then 2♥-4♦. I like that, as I mentioned somewhere above. But still we have some stuff to sort out. Afaik, the 2♦ does not promise an ace, it just promises values. Playing 2♦ as waiting the auction 2♣-2♦-2♥-4♦ presumably also promises some values beyond the stiff diamond and the four trump. So I am not sure it is all that much different.
After the splinter support of hearts we are going to 6♥, we have to sort out 6 from 7, and it would be good to have tools, independent of what took place before the 4♦ bid. My choice over 2♥ was 3♥. I admit that if we were playing 2♦ as positive then 3♥ would not have seemed right, but I think I should have bid 4♦ anyway.

Examining the merits of 2♦ positive is on my list of things to do, along with losing weight and learning how to use various features of my cell phone. It may well be worthwhile, I have not yet done it. So far, I am more inclined to work through with partner more details of the 2♦ waiting approach.

[mgoetze]

 lycier, on 2016-March-07, 07:55, said:

Who play waiting bid? Who is willing to play waiting bid?

Me, in fact I'm not really willing to play anything else. After all, it is the least wasteful way to bid, giving opener maximum room to describe his hand.

[lycier]

 kenberg, on 2016-March-07, 08:43, said:

After the splinter support of hearts we are going to 6♥, we have to sort out 6 from 7, and it would be good to have tools, independent of what took place before the 4♦ bid. My choice over 2♥ was 3♥. I admit that if we were playing 2♦ as positive then 3♥ would not have seemed right, but I think I should have bid 4♦ anyway.

Now I would try to play it as a positive response :

---

Any idea?