[biggerclub]

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I dunno. E should definitely feel that slam is nearly certain. On the other hand W should "see" a black singleton or at worst 4 cards total in the blacks. 7♦ is untouchable. I am disappointed in our bidding here.

[bigbenvic]

biggerclub, on 2015-November-24, 23:28, said:

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I dunno. E should definitely feel that slam is nearly certain. On the other hand W should "see" a black singleton or at worst 4 cards total in the blacks. 7♦ is untouchable. I am disappointed in our bidding here.

It looks like a misunderstanding around the 4nt bid and maybe even the 4d bid? I'd think E meant it as I have extras but nothing to cue under 5d and West passed as he thought.... I have no idea what he thought. Maybe without a club cue he figured 10 tricks was easier than 11?

So I blame west 100% unless in their system 4nt was to play!

[mike777]

I must be missing something

1) assume 2d=art and gf
2) assume 3d=nat and 3 loser hand
3) east has easy 4d bid now over 3d

east should be looking for grand at this point.

as far as west knows east is limited by her pass but forcing, east could have so much more
west has shown long d and 3 loser hand....just what they have


getting to 7 is hard but missing 6 is just silly

[WesleyC]

Especially in the minors I prefer to open 2C fairly conservatively. This means that East, holding 4 trumps, a singleton and a potential trick source is basically always forcing to slam. With such an amazing hand for diamonds, it feels right to focus on that with a direct raise (or a splinter raise) rather than introducing hearts. So East gets some blame.

However having already pulled 3NT to 4D, East's 4NT is surely forcing. The most logical meaning is probably an ongoing slam try without a club control but using it as keycard might also be fine if you wanted to keep things simple. Even if it wasn't forcing, with solid diamonds and controls in every suit, why would West pass?

So call it 50% East, 100% West!

[rmnka447]

I certainly subscribe to opening 3 loser minor hands and 4 loser major hands with a strong 2 ♣ opener.

I agree with others that a 4 ♦ raise is called for with the East hand. You have controls in 2 of the side suits and great trump support. Once 4 ♦ is bid you should get to slam, but grand may be difficult to bid. Bidding it rests on West being able to show ♠ AKQ, so that East can visualize that there will be no ♣ losers.

Also, if you are playing 2 ♦ positive and 2 ♥ negative by responder, you have run into a hand that makes it difficult to properly show your ♥ values.

[Fluffy]

If 4NT was really not forcing then East is to blame.

[rhm]

WesleyC, on 2015-November-25, 01:36, said:

However having already pulled 3NT to 4D, East's 4NT is surely forcing.

Why?
In fact I like to play it the other way round with good results.
Make it easy for East to make a slam suggestion in a minor with the understanding that the partnership can still stop in 4NT.

For sure I would not have chosen 4NT for that reason with East (because I am not prepared to stop below 6♦) nor would I have passed 4NT with West.

Rainer Herrmann

[WesleyC]

rhm, on 2015-November-25, 03:45, said:

Why?

Given that you don't have much room below 5m, having 4NT available as a forward going slam try is valuable.

My preferred agreements regarding pulling 3NT to a natural slam try 4m are: the partner who bid 3NT is allowed to bid 4NT, natural and NF. Any other bid is at least mildly forward going in the minor and commits our side to playing in the minor. 4m+1 (by either partner) would be kickback and 4NT would show either a control in the 4m+1 suit or a last-train style slam try depending on the context.

This isn't an ideal method in this specific situation, but I like it as a general agreement. Usually it is the 3NT bidder (rather than their partner) who is best placed to suggest 4NT as a final contract. If responder wanted to invite slam and really wanted to play 4NT rather than 5m, they could invite with a quantitative 4NT themselves.

[biggerclub]

I was E.

I did not feel that 4NT was forcing here. So I feel like I really let my partner down.

The allure of showing the ♥s so cheaply combined with knowing that 4♦ would be properly interpreted as a slam try led to the 3♥ call. I suppose since LTC tells me that 7 is in the air, I should just take control after 3♦. However . . .

I don't know what partner was thinking over 4NT but surely 4♦ tells him that he can count on me for no more than 5 black cards and the A♥. That makes 6♦ laydown. But still lacking any reasonable tries for 7. I don't think that E can take any other route than the one taken to communicate that this hand has lots of red cards and few black ones -- which is the critical information for bidding 7. Well, other than W bidding something or some line that says "I have the AKQ of ♠" which, as noted above may allow E to bid 7. [If W has a doubleton or more in Hs, we still have some problems.]

We are not a regular partnership, but both top quintile players at the club where this game was held. We discuss hands together regularly but have not spent much time on our own personal system.

[biggerclub]

Partner thinks I owe him 5♠ over 4♠.

I am inclined to agree with that or with 5♥, suggested by another player.

My "on the fly" thinking was that 2♦, 3♥, 4♦ had shown everything I held. But that puts a LOT of pressure on partner.

[MinorKid]

Defining that the 4♦ bid being forcing to 5♦ would solve this issue.

[jodepp]

If this was IMP scoring, there's plenty of blame to go around:

1) East's 3♥ started rolling the ball in the wrong direction. 4♦ is preferable, but I confess I'm surprised to read anybody suggesting a 4♠ splinter.

2) West's passing 4NT is simply laughable. East's 4♦ is slammish, period.

Also, the thread author didn't state methods over the strong opening. If 2♥ was available as a natural positive, that has to be preferable to 2♦.

[Mbodell]

How about:
2♣-2♥
3♦-4♠
5♣-5♥
7♦

The heart positive followed by spade splinter for diamonds gets most of the hand over I think. There is some chance East has 4 clubs (1534 is possible even if the splinter is usually 4 card support), but it isn't that likely (unless 0544 which is fine) and east could have the K or QJ with finesse on and some outside chance hearts may setup for pitches as extra outs. A cue of hearts over game after the positive must be the A.

[Fluffy]

I don't think 4♦ promises more than 2♦.

[Fluffy]

Mbodell, on 2015-December-01, 05:59, said:

How about:
2♣-2♥
3♦-4♠
5♣-5♥
7♦

The heart positive followed by spade splinter for diamonds gets most of the hand over I think. There is some chance East has 4 clubs (1534 is possible even if the splinter is usually 4 card support), but it isn't that likely (unless 0544 which is fine) and east could have the K or QJ with finesse on and some outside chance hearts may setup for pitches as extra outs. A cue of hearts over game after the positive must be the A.

Reading 2♦ explanation leads me to believe 2♥ wouldn't be a heart positive.

[Mbodell]

Ok, so switch the 2!h to 2nt or 2!s or whichever shows the !h positive.

[phoenix214]

Interestingly enough I recall missing 2 slams similar to the auction like this during the last 2 weeks - lesson learned.
When the auction goes 2♣-2♦, 3 of a minor, you raise your partner if you have support, if you go looking for a minor fit, later showing minor support gets partner confused(I was on both sides of this), so you will end up in some no-mans land.

[rmnka447]

Fluffy, on 2015-December-01, 06:56, said:

Reading 2♦ explanation leads me to believe 2♥ wouldn't be a heart positive.

That's what I thought also as the 2 ♦ explanation is usually the one you get when playing 2 ♥ negative. It's the reason I inserted the comment about the hand not fitting the methods.

[neilkaz]

Isn't this a ♥ positive response for some? ie 8 or more HCP and 5 card or longer suit headed by 2 of top 3 honors. Although it isn't pleasant to have to bid 2NT to show this when play 2♥= bust and having a minimum.

[all loomis]

biggerclub, on 2015-November-24, 23:28, said:

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I dunno. E should definitely feel that slam is nearly certain. On the other hand W should "see" a black singleton or at worst 4 cards total in the blacks. 7♦ is untouchable. I am disappointed in our bidding here.

2c 2h, 3d 4d better start.

2c 2d [if you must], 3d 4s also works.