[biggerclub]

---

At least we had no reason to fear that the other table would find the grand.

[manudude03]

I would be very tempted just to bid 7D over 6D with the East hand. Can West really have a 6D bid missing ♦AK, ♣AK and first round heart control? However, having said that, both players were lazy. 5D is a big underbid, I prefer 4H. I think West owes partner a 5H bid too.

[mike777]

again very hard very hard hand..


hate 5d....


hate 6d over 5d prefer 5h

again very hard hand...hate all the bidding but hard

[biggerclub]

mike777, on 2015-September-26, 01:54, said:

hate 5d....

Me too, but what else? 4H sounds like support for all strains or short ♥s. 4NT-ish style previously led to disaster with this partnership. 6D is about right on values, but there could easily be 2 fast ♥ losers.

mike777, on 2015-September-26, 01:54, said:

hate 6d over 5d prefer 5h

My thinking also, but it is always easier to spot partner's mistakes than one's own.

[Lovera]

But seriuosly: after 5♦ showing longness and suit should not start rkb for diamond with 5♥ ? And the answer is not 6♣(=2 keys w/o Q) ? Then an eventual query for Kings could get to realize 7 NT.(Lovera)

[rmnka447]

Some questions come to mind --

How good is the West hand? Is it good enough to double and show both suits? Or, should West start out with a simple 3 ♠ bid?

Is some sort of Michaels bid available? If so, is West's hand good enough to make it?

West definitely has a lot point wise and it counts to 4 losers LTC-wise. But having one of the hand's two suits headed by QJ and out is concern. Despite the point count and losers, I'm not so sure the hand is up to doubling and bidding both suits. Ditto for a Michael type bid if one is available. Also, if you double, would you be concerned should partner pass? I think that is a consideration. So, this may be one of those hands where a simple overcall works best.

Let's look at a possible sequence --

West------East

3 ♠ ------ 4 ♦

East just can't sit for 3 ♠, so 4 ♦. If West rebids spades over 4 ♦, then I think East passes and hopes for the best as West has then shown 6+ ♠ length. If West hasn't fallen off his chair because of East's bid, then West's next action is clear -- show the ♥ control. It must agree ♦ and at this level show a 1st round control. Also, with the big fit, the main worry is two possible ♣ losers or possibly a ♣ loser and a ♦ loser.

4 ♥ ------ 5 ♣

East certainly loves West's ♥ control and will cooperate in control bidding toward slam. But there's a concern about how West might interpret 4 ♠ at this point. Might West interpret it as big double fit or a missing ♠ honor? East can't know for sure. So showing the ♣ control seems safer. It might also any questions West might have about the remaining side suit. This is also important because of the limited bidding space.

5 NT ----- 7 ♦

From West's point of view, it looks like 13 tricks may be available if East sits up West's ♠ and ruffs ♥ losers in West's hand. Also East might be able to pitch any ♣ losers on West's ♠. If all else fails, there might have a double Squeeze with South stopping ♥, North stopping ♣ and both potentially stopping ♠ if East has at least one. At worst, if East holds ♣ AJ, it could come down to a ♣ finesse into the long ♥ hand. So, 5 NT GSF seems like a good bet. East bids the grand holding 2 high ♦ honors.

[Lovera]

rmnka447, on 2015-September-27, 12:03, said:

Some questions come to mind --

How good is the West hand? Is it good enough to double and show both suits? Or, should West start out with a simple 3 ♠ bid?

Is some sort of Michaels bid available? If so, is West's hand good enough to make it?

West definitely has a lot point wise and it counts to 4 losers LTC-wise. But having one of the hand's two suits headed by QJ and out is concern. Despite the point count and losers, I'm not so sure the hand is up to doubling and bidding both suits. Ditto for a Michael type bid if one is available. Also, if you double, would you be concerned should partner pass? I think that is a consideration. So, this may be one of those hands where a simple overcall works best.

Let's look at a possible sequence --

West------East

3 ♠ ------ 4 ♦

East just can't sit for 3 ♠, so 4 ♦. If West rebids spades over 4 ♦, then I think East passes and hopes for the best as West has then shown 6+ ♠ length. If West hasn't fallen off his chair because of East's bid, then West's next action is clear -- show the ♥ control. It must agree ♦ and at this level show a 1st round control. Also, with the big fit, the main worry is two possible ♣ losers or possibly a ♣ loser and a ♦ loser.

4 ♥ ------ 5 ♣

East certainly loves West's ♥ control and will cooperate in control bidding toward slam. But there's a concern about how West might interpret 4 ♠ at this point. Might West interpret it as big double fit or a missing ♠ honor? East can't know for sure. So showing the ♣ control seems safer. It might also any questions West might have about the remaining side suit. This is also important because of the limited bidding space.

5 NT ----- 7 ♦

From West's point of view, it looks like 13 tricks may be available if East sits up West's ♠ and ruffs ♥ losers in West's hand. Also East might be able to pitch any ♣ losers on West's ♠. If all else fails, there might have a double Squeeze with South stopping ♥, North stopping ♣ and both potentially stopping ♠ if East has at least one. At worst, if East holds ♣ AJ, it could come down to a ♣ finesse into the long ♥ hand. So, 5 NT GSF seems like a good bet. East bids the grand holding 2 high ♦ honors.

Ok, it how my idea one level before. Although about eventually squeeze perhaps you must consider heart and spade as unilaterals and club as indeterminate(=double) menace in a reciprocal equilibrate ending with club recessed.

[ggwhiz]

Both players were lazy but west not bidding 5♥ tips the scales for me. Must have been a speedball and behind on the clock to be THAT lazy.

[phil_20686]

I mean, wow, I can imagine not getting to 7 pretty easily here, but both players basically gave up?

East has an easy 4h bid followed by 5D. 4H just shows a single suited slam try somewhere imo. West, over this, is going to go absolutely bonkers. He will probably bid 4N, as a kind of waiting bid, and when partner bids 5D to show diamonds he can just bid 7. He might bid 5H on the way, but honestly, what is the point?

West even after a 5D bid has been a bit pathetic. give partner three small hearts, AKxxxx diamonds and the club ace and you are just completely cold all of the time. Would I gamble 7? not sure, but am very close to it, I would probably try 5H first, when partner shows a spade void, Ill try 5N next, partner will bid 6C and that will be enough for me to bid 7 for sure.

[ggwhiz]

phil_20686, on 2015-September-27, 21:04, said:

I would probably try 5H first, when partner shows a spade void, Ill try 5N next, partner will bid 6C and that will be enough for me to bid 7 for sure.

I agree with all of your post except that East should bid the grand over 5nt and you might miss this grand (never easily) if 1 player bids lazily, never if neither does.

[Fluffy]

How can East not bid 6♦ over the double? He could try 4♥ in the hopes of finding a club fit, but other than that setting for game is betting on something very odd as 2 quick heart losers. A real bad bet.

Seriously, you have no loser except your 3 small where partner has promised to be short. You make slam opposite a 4144 with ♣Q and nothing else, how can you settle for game when partner is suposed to have much more?

[Zelandakh]

A little surprised no one has mentioned the possibility of overcalling 4♦ yet. Is NLM in a phase of low popularity? In any case, the worst call is surely 5♦, almost anything else is going to work out better.

[manudude03]

Zelandakh, on 2015-October-01, 09:00, said:

A little surprised no one has mentioned the possibility of overcalling 4♦ yet. Is NLM in a phase of low popularity? In any case, the worst call is surely 5♦, almost anything else is going to work out better.

I somewhat assumed OP would have mentioned it if they were playing NLM.

[mikeh]

I upvoted Gonzalo's post but will add a thought or two.

Phil mentioned that 4♥ by East would show a strong single suit. I disagree. 4♥ shows a good hand....that's it. What else is East to do with a 2-suiter too strong to just bid/guess game?

As it is, looking at AK/AK and three hearts, to bid just 5♦ is extremely timid. Yes, partner 'could' hold two heart losers or even Kx and see the second heart ruffed, but the odds are against it, and our minors are such that we will miss a lot of slams. AKxx x Qxxx QJxx, do we really expect partner to raise?

Once East has bid 5♦, then for west to bid a meek 6♦ is almost as soft as east's action. Note that West cannot argue that it is all east's fault. Make east's hand xx xxx AKxxxx Ax, and 5♦ is very logical, and grand is still cold. As it happens, since both underbid, they had several overtricks available in the grand

West has the world's easiest 5♥ call, over which even the ultra-conservative East would surely wake up and the partnership would reach the grand.

I would be embarrassed to miss this one, playing with a good partner.

[Fluffy]

For the record, when I looked at East's hand over the double I saw 10-11 sure tricks. If someone made same initial approach and counted 14 HCP somehow, you are doing it very badly.

[johnu]

Thanks for asking about a missed grand that is actually a good contract