[kugw]

My regular partner and I play a canape system.

I know that canape systems are not a new idea. However, the way we play it is that all one suit openings are natural and do not deny a longer suit. If we have two four card suits of the same rank (minors or major) we open the lower ranking and if we have a 4 card major and a 4 card minor we open the 4 card major. This opening does not deny holding a longer suit.

To date we have not had problems.

[mike777]

 kugw, on 2015-August-29, 19:52, said:

My regular partner and I play a canape system.

I know that canape systems are not a new idea. However, the way we play it is that all one suit openings are natural and do not deny a longer suit. If we have two four card suits of the same rank (minors or major) we open the lower ranking and if we have a 4 card major and a 4 card minor we open the 4 card major. This opening does not deny holding a longer suit.

To date we have not had problems.

I played a canapé system for years...very fun. I should note I played where 1d, 1h or 1s always promised 4+, never less.

Canape in a strong club system.

that means second is always longer except at times club suit.
But very often second suit is longer. Very often the second suit will be longer...a few times the club suit may not be.

follow up system clears it up

[sakuragi]

canape makes a lot of sense to me too, though have never played it.

[johnu]

 mike777, on 2015-August-29, 20:37, said:

Canape in a strong club system.

that means second is always longer except at times club suit.
But very often second suit is longer. Very often the second suit will be longer...a few times the club suit may not be.

follow up system clears it up

1) You can play canape without playing a strong club system.
2) In Blue Team club which is the most popular strong club, canape system, the 1st suit can be the longest suit.
a) Less than reverse strength, open higher ranked suit even if longer (e.g. 6♥-4♦ or 4♥-6♦, open 1♥)
b) If clubs is one of the suits, open the other suit (e.g. 5♠-4♣ or 4♠-5♣, open 1♠) except if maximum 15-16 with longer clubs, open 2♣

[helene_t]

Hands with reverse strength can be awkward. Say
1d-1s
2h
This shows 11-15 with 5+hearts. With more than that you would have to rebid at the 3level.

I suppose that is the main reason why canape systems usually include a low level forcing opening. Usually 1c.

[kenrexford]

 helene_t, on 2015-August-30, 01:27, said:

Hands with reverse strength can be awkward. Say
1d-1s
2h
This shows 11-15 with 5+hearts. With more than that you would have to rebid at the 3level.

I suppose that is the main reason why canape systems usually include a low level forcing opening. Usually 1c.

That sequence is actually quite good for canapé in MICS. Opener bids 2H with longer hearts but not 3 spades, while 1nt instead shows 3S/5H. The better version has these reversed, with 2H promising the third spade and 1nt denying 3.

[kugw]

 johnu, on 2015-August-30, 00:58, said:

1) You can play canape without playing a strong club system.
2) In Blue Team club which is the most popular strong club, canape system, the 1st suit can be the longest suit.
a) Less than reverse strength, open higher ranked suit even if longer (e.g. 6♥-4♦ or 4♥-6♦, open 1♥)
b) If clubs is one of the suits, open the other suit (e.g. 5♠-4♣ or 4♠-5♣, open 1♠) except if maximum 15-16 with longer clubs, open 2♣

We do not worry about reversing, rather we are more concerned about shape and not hcp.

[kugw]

 kenrexford, on 2015-August-30, 11:25, said:

That sequence is actually quite good for canapé in MICS. Opener bids 2H with longer hearts but not 3 spades, while 1nt instead shows 3S/5H. The better version has these reversed, with 2H promising the third spade and 1nt denying 3.

Do not understand what MICS is?

[johnu]

 kugw, on 2015-September-08, 00:43, said:

We do not worry about reversing, rather we are more concerned about shape and not hcp.

Sometimes you have shape and HCP

[kenrexford]

 kugw, on 2015-September-08, 00:49, said:

Do not understand what MICS is?

MICS is short for Modified Italian Canape System. It's the canape system I have played for decades and that I wrote about in a book of the same title.

[kugw]

 kenrexford, on 2015-August-30, 11:25, said:

That sequence is actually quite good for canapé in MICS. Opener bids 2H with longer hearts but not 3 spades, while 1nt instead shows 3S/5H. The better version has these reversed, with 2H promising the third spade and 1nt denying 3.

Thanks for explaining what MICS stands for.

So how does one show a hand balanced in the 12-14 hcp range if
1D 1S
1NT = the above
And, why should this auction show 5+ hearts? I guess the answer is you are playing MICS!


In MICS is 1C opening multi-purpose? For what my opinion is worth the biggest problem with multi-purpose 1C openings is that they place strain on the rest of the system trying to compensate for the fact that you cannot open any hand that contains 4 clubs and a longer suit and 11-15 hcp at the 1 level you must open it at the 2 level.

[Kungsgeten]

 kugw, on 2015-September-12, 00:23, said:

In MICS is 1C opening multi-purpose? For what my opinion is worth the biggest problem with multi-purpose 1C openings is that they place strain on the rest of the system trying to compensate for the fact that you cannot open any hand that contains 4 clubs and a longer suit and 11-15 hcp at the 1 level you must open it at the 2 level.

You are correct. In MICS hands with 4 clubs and 5+ side suit is opened at the two-level (so the 1C opening is not multi purpose, it is strong). MICS has the following opening bids, if I remember correctly:

1C = Strong. 16+
1D = 11--15. Nebulous (called "Flamingo" in the system). a) 4+ diamonds, canapé with a 5+ major b) A single-suited 6+ minor (so could be 6+ clubs and 0 diamonds)
1M = 11--15. 4+ major and 5+ side suit, but I think 5M332 is opened 1M too.
1NT = 12--15 NT
2C = 11--15. Any 4441 pattern.
2D = 11--15. Both minors, 5-4 or better.
2H = 11--15. 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs
2S = 11--15. 5+ spades and 4+ clubs
2NT = I can not remember.

If you'd like to play a canapé system without these kind of Roman 2M openings I would suggest looking at "An Unassuming Club". It is not a canapé system, but I think you could modify it into a canapé system.

[kenrexford]

With a light balanced hand (11-12) and no 4 card major, you don't open in MICS.

With a light balanced hand and a 4 card major, you open the major.

With a 5 card major and 5332, MICS offers three options, depending on strength and card location. If light, 1M is an option. If concentration of values in the major and diamonds, opening 1D as a canape works. Or, open 1NT.

[TomReynold]

 kenrexford, on 2015-September-13, 20:40, said:

With a light balanced hand (11-12) and no 4 card major, you don't open in MICS.

With a light balanced hand and a 4 card major, you open the major.

With a 5 card major and 5332, MICS offers three options, depending on strength and card location. If light, 1M is an option. If concentration of values in the major and diamonds, opening 1D as a canape works. Or, open 1NT.

In our analysis, we believe that passing 11HCP NV or 12HCP any time may produce a theoretically sound system but not one that will work at the table. In practice there is a significant advantage to opening first. The "nebulous diamond" (10-15HCP 2+ diamonds) was not to our liking and we saw many bad results in the 2015 team trials. Our conclusion was an 11-14HCP weak NT, 11-13NV and 12-14Vul. Hands to strong to open 1NT are opened 1 of a major if possible. (1C is 16HCP with a balanced hand or major hand, 17 HCP with a minor oriented hand.) We canapé only into clubs.

Regards

[helene_t]

Presumably, in MICS, a 1-suited hand with a major just open the major?

[kenrexford]

 helene_t, on 2015-September-21, 03:31, said:

Presumably, in MICS, a 1-suited hand with a major just open the major?

Yes. With 6-4, use judgment if the shorter is a minor.

[kenrexford]

 TomReynold, on 2015-September-20, 22:57, said:

In our analysis, we believe that passing 11HCP NV or 12HCP any time may produce a theoretically sound system but not one that will work at the table. In practice there is a significant advantage to opening first. The "nebulous diamond" (10-15HCP 2+ diamonds) was not to our liking and we saw many bad results in the 2015 team trials. Our conclusion was an 11-14HCP weak NT, 11-13NV and 12-14Vul. Hands to strong to open 1NT are opened 1 of a major if possible. (1C is 16HCP with a balanced hand or major hand, 17 HCP with a minor oriented hand.) We canapé only into clubs.

Regards

I mean, if you want to get frisky, you can occasionally whip out a 1D opening in MICS with 5332 and a long minor, or maybe even a rare 2344 1H opening on the fragment. Done that.

[TomReynold]

 kenrexford, on 2015-September-22, 19:51, said:

I mean, if you want to get frisky, you can occasionally whip out a 1D opening in MICS with 5332 and a long minor, or maybe even a rare 2344 1H opening on the fragment. Done that.

Ken,
Our analysis is that what you (and we) consider “friskey” is, in fact, required. I am suggesting that you also take a look at the 2015 Team Trials and see if you agree with our analysis. One of the fundamental issues with canapé system building, and system building in general, is how to handle the minimum balanced hand. If opening with 11HCP is required it might mean a serious rework of systems.
As ex Neapolitan and Blue Team players we set the minimum balanced opening bid as 12HCP. Our basis was that this hand, opposite itself, would produce game (theoretically) slightly above 40% to slightly below 60%.
I am now questioning if this was a sound decision. We are modifying our system (Mavarako) to incorporate an 11HCP weak NT NV.
Tom

[kenrexford]

I suppose you could have a lighter 1NT, maybe 11 to 14. With 15 or 16, opening 1C might be managed.

I still think that the better solution for the integrity of the system is to not do that.

[TomReynold]

Our thinking so far is:

16+HCP Club opener as long as the club opener can bid 1NT (16-18HCP) or 1 of a major (16+HCP) over 1D. We concluded we needed 17+ with a minor the primary suit and a secondary suit. That allows 1C-1D-2C(D) to be forcing or semi-forcing. We allow rebidding a 4 card major after 1C-1D but not with 16-17HCP and a balanced hand. Essentially we are restricting the 16HCP hand included in the club opener to retain integrity.

As you say, a 15HCP forcing club weakens the integrity of the bid. We tried using a forcing club 17+HCP, adopting the Polish style of incorporating the 15-16HCP 4-5 club hand into the club opener. (We opened the weak balanced hand 1NT, not 1C like the Polish Club) This helped the 2C opener immensely. Unfortunately the club opener worked poorly. We now canapé with 15-16HCP and clubs the longer suit and reverse with 15-16HCP and diamonds the longer suit. Dropping the 1C opener to 16HCP with 1NT or 1 of a major rebid seems to work.

With 14-16HCP open one of a major (4 cards) and rebid NT to announce 14-16HCP. Over 1 of a major 1NT, use Gazilli with 15-16HCP. a 2/1 is 10+ and the partnership can stop in 2 of the opener's suit or 2NT. However a 2NT rebid by opener is game forcing

One can canapé into a 5 card major or not. Either works in the system. Canapé into diamonds has the usual problems.

We have found an 11-14HCP NT opener to be unworkable. Therefore it is 11-13HCP NV and 12-14HCP vul

Where the system loses integrity is the 2C bid. One must open 2C with:
a. 11-14Hands with 4 of the major and 5 clubs and the inability to open 1NT. To canapé with this hand creates a large range
b. 3-3-2-5 hands of 15HCP or 14HCP when the 1NT opener is 11-13.

Any ideas? In particular working on the abortion that is now our 2C opener is something I haven't spent much time on. The writeup now runs almost 100 Pages and we need to spend some time actually playing the game.

Tom