Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?
#21521
Posted 2024-June-10, 11:59
#21522
Posted 2024-June-10, 20:56
hrothgar, on 2024-June-10, 11:59, said:
The details of why are unimportant, but today I had to spend a couple of hours in close proximity to a handful of Trump supporters who blabbed nonstop. I'm sure everyone has met this type, two guys who were once in the Army, likely lifers who seemed more brainwashed than stupid and think everything the Army does is the best it can be done-you know the type, really gung-ho, and all they could spout was Constisution this, Constitution that, militia this, militia that, guns this, guns that.... The amount of total crap they spread in that 2 hours was incredible, and joining in was an evangelical Christian woman quoting all the Bible verses that showed Biden was either A. demon possessed B. the antichrist or C. a fulfillment of some inane prophecy that has nothing to do with anything. Biden was found at fault for milk prices being too high, for anything that wasn't Trump. It was obvious that these three believed totally in their delusions and nothing could have reached them.
It was demoralizing to see such depth of gullability. But the deeper issue to me is more troubling: these beliefs are part of these peoples personalities, part of the "self". To challenge those beliefs even with innocuous questions is to upend the person's stability - they simply cannot allow any shaking of their beliefs as that shakes the very core of self. To change their minds requires a tearing down of self and a rebuilding of a new ego. I would guess somewhere well south of 1% are willing to do that.
#21523
Posted 2024-June-12, 09:00
Winstonm, on 2024-June-10, 11:55, said:
There is something that can be done. I can't do it. You can't do it. It requires that we do it as a nation. It requires active politics and voting. It requires self-governance. I doubt we do it.
This is preetty much what I undestood you to be saying. Sure, someting might happen. But your listof possibilities does not include any rethinking by the Democratic leadership. My point, and it has been my point for quite a while now, is that when Trump, always a truly bad guy and now really an almost incoherent bad guy, can be in contention for the presidency the Democratic leadership should at least consider the possibility that maybe they have made a mistake or two. My entire life has taught me that when things go wrong it is useful to look for errors that I might have made.
#21524
Posted 2024-June-12, 19:12
Winstonm, on 2024-June-10, 20:56, said:
It was demoralizing to see such depth of gullability. But the deeper issue to me is more troubling: these beliefs are part of these peoples personalities, part of the "self". To challenge those beliefs even with innocuous questions is to upend the person's stability - they simply cannot allow any shaking of their beliefs as that shakes the very core of self. To change their minds requires a tearing down of self and a rebuilding of a new ego. I would guess somewhere well south of 1% are willing to do that.
I almost, well not really, wish I had been there. I would like to ask if there could be basic agreement on the following: The fact that 12 jurors voted unaminously to convice Hunter Biden is a strong reason to believe that Hunter Biden did what the prosecutors said that he did, and the fact that 12 jurors voted unaminously to convict Donald Trump is a strong reason to believe that Donald Trump did what the prosecutors said that he did. Can people agree to that simple statement? They are free to have divergent views about many asppects of the two cases but can they agree on what seems to me to be indisputable? When 12 jurors gree that the defendant is guilty, it is very likel, not certain but very likely, that the defendant did what the prosecutor said that he did.
As I and just about everyone has noticed, we seem to have trouble agreeing on what day of the week it is. But we should still try. 12 jurors can make a mistake, yep they can, but they try their best and if all 12 aree that he did it, it is vey likely that he did it. It would be good if we could all agree on that much. My guess is that no, we can't agree on even that. That is seriously upsetting. We must do better.
#21525
Posted 2024-June-12, 20:59
It's even less useful to tell them they stupid, irrational and that all their dearly-held beliefs are going to cause the world to end tomorrow.
Progressives (if such a thing actually exists in the USA) are not likely to secure votes by telling Conservatives that (inter alia):
They can't have guns.
They can have abortions.
Immigration is good.
America is racist and has structural inequalities.
The economy is in great shape.
On top of that bonfire you can throw in the gasoline of Middle East and Ukraine wars, gender identity and the truly bizarre idea that speech is free but books that some communities (or 'folks' as Americans like to say) don't like should be banned.
#21526
Posted 2024-June-13, 02:54
Something seems to have happened quite recently to create this disconnect, where people agree that their family's economic situation is good/improving and even that their state is doing well, but think that the national economy is terrible even though the various economic indicators are strong. It's not solely a partisan thing either.
The one thing that sticks out for me is the bout of severe inflation, which we hadn't seen since the late 1970s (when the country and the news media were both quite different than they are today). People see that prices went up and feel like this is bad even though their income may have gone up by more. Thus they can say that their family's situation is good (because income increased by more than prices) but still feel unhappy about the price increase.
I also feel like there was a lot more coverage of economists' predictions of a recession than we used to see (and those predictions were not very accurate as no recession materialized). And it's possible that people complaining about things on social media had an impact.
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#21527
Posted 2024-June-13, 05:19
#21528
Posted 2024-June-13, 07:41
awm, on 2024-June-13, 02:54, said:
Something seems to have happened quite recently to create this disconnect, where people agree that their family's economic situation is good/improving and even that their state is doing well, but think that the national economy is terrible even though the various economic indicators are strong. It's not solely a partisan thing either.
The one thing that sticks out for me is the bout of severe inflation, which we hadn't seen since the late 1970s (when the country and the news media were both quite different than they are today). People see that prices went up and feel like this is bad even though their income may have gone up by more. Thus they can say that their family's situation is good (because income increased by more than prices) but still feel unhappy about the price increase.
I also feel like there was a lot more coverage of economists' predictions of a recession than we used to see (and those predictions were not very accurate as no recession materialized). And it's possible that people complaining about things on social media had an impact.
It appears to me (relying only on untrustworthy memory) that this change is at least somewhat in common with the advent of cable news and the death of strong FCC oversight, including the Fairness Doctrine. It was the beginning of creating alternative facts, which is truly weird yet true in the sense that what is believed is that person's truth.
I don't know what can be done. The unwind at this point requires changes at the individual level. There is a tad bit of hope in that church attendence is falling and the number of Americans who claim no religious belief is rising but those numbers move slowly and incrementally so can't be counted on to make a difference in time for the next election.
#21529
Posted 2024-June-13, 07:50
kenberg, on 2024-June-12, 19:12, said:
As I and just about everyone has noticed, we seem to have trouble agreeing on what day of the week it is. But we should still try. 12 jurors can make a mistake, yep they can, but they try their best and if all 12 aree that he did it, it is vey likely that he did it. It would be good if we could all agree on that much. My guess is that no, we can't agree on even that. That is seriously upsetting. We must do better.
I can pretty much assure you of what their response would have been to any questions about jury trials. I have experience with this in that a sister-in-law is knee-deep in right-wing disinformation/propagnda. The short answer is that they will parrot whatever the latest spin is from their information sources, Fox News, Sinclair Broadcasting, Alex Jones, various internet blogs and sites, Facefook/Meta, and the entire Republica Party: Hunter Biden should have been convicted on more serious crimes and Trump was innocent and Biden made the state of New York convict him.
I mean, seriously, if you believe a dead body that has undergone the normal after death deterioration can by magic (I'm thinking Lazarus, not Jesus) be resurrected intact and whole after some number of days, what won't you believe?
#21530
Posted 2024-June-14, 06:59
Winstonm, on 2024-June-13, 07:50, said:
I mean, seriously, if you believe a dead body that has undergone the normal after death deterioration can by magic (I'm thinking Lazarus, not Jesus) be resurrected intact and whole after some number of days, what won't you believe?
Not everyone who goes to church on Sunday believes that Jonah lived for three days in the belly of a whale. Or, in more presonal terms, I stopped going to churche when I was 14, my childhood friend Roger became a Methodist minister, we see things ifferently but after 70+years we are still good friends. There are variations within all groups.
#21531
Posted 2024-June-14, 09:25
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
#21532
Posted 2024-June-14, 12:09
kenberg, on 2024-June-14, 06:59, said:
Not everyone who goes to church on Sunday believes that Jonah lived for three days in the belly of a whale. Or, in more presonal terms, I stopped going to churche when I was 14, my childhood friend Roger became a Methodist minister, we see things ifferently but after 70+years we are still good friends. There are variations within all groups.
Of course there is variation. But that doesn't discount my point. Sure, there may be a relative few who attend church for the sociallness of it, but the vast majority either accept or want to accept its beliefs that at the very least Jesus was raised from the dead.
The significance of that is that anything a church does that is good can be accomplished by a secular group who simply decides to do it. I can decide to go weekly to a building a listen to talks, sing songs,, donate to the poor, etc. What the secular won't do, though, is promise a magical solution to life's problems and a promise of an afterlife.
The people who attend church, the vast majority, are in that non-secular category. They want to have solutions given to them by a heirarchal structure.
"I am the way, the truth and the life," so says John 14:6
"I alone can fix it." So said John: 45
#21533
Posted 2024-June-14, 18:23
I would like to think there is one institution we can still rely on
I think many in the world have not had that privilege
I don't comment on individual cases, especially those I haven't followed closely enough to know all the details of what was presented argued and proved beyond reasonable doubt