[Winstonm]

 shyams, on 2024-July-30, 12:02, said:

I think mycroft stopped one sentence too soon. The sentence that follows also should matter a lot (and perhaps be included everytime the famous sentence is quoted). It reads:

(Quote) Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. (End quote).
The President made a commitment on behalf of all political leaders that they all will maintain those high standards in return for your sacrifice. An integral part of the "deal", don't you think?

* Yet, for the last 25+ years, your leaders [regardless of party] have acted with utter disdain for standards.
* They sacrifice nothing and they rarely show strength [of morality, character, actions].
* I bet (didn't check) that nobody from your political or media establishments has ever mentioned the other sentence again. They made it vanish, probably because they don't like the implications.

I think your leaders think of themselves as "the country" referred to in JFKs quote. i.e. don't ask politicians to do anything for you, instead be clear that you must do things for your leaders.

I have a quibble. I often see this type diatribe against "elites", "politicians", "your leaders", "they" etc. These words are meaningless to anyone but the speaker; only the speaker knows his own beliefs. If you have disagreements, it would be better to be specific. What leaders, when, and what did they do and so on.

Otherwise, you're just spouting personally held grievances without making an argument as to why your grievances are valid.

[kenberg]

 mycroft, on 2024-July-31, 09:53, said:

"Ask what you can do for your country". There is not a specific answer. Was a long-time professor, researcher and teacher of Mathematics in the early computer era better for America than another GI Joe (and whatever happened after, assuming there was an after)?

You are allowed to be selfish. You are allowed to do what's best for you. All you were being asked is "do what's best for you in the way that best supports the USA" rather than "do what's best for you, even if it harms the USA".

It doesn't have to be military. I would never have been a good fit in the military, even if I wasn't as clumsy and weak as someone 6' and 127# would be. I actively avoided *that side* of the cryptography ladder in my grad studies and future employment. I do think that I have been a net plus to Canada (even if monetarily, I probably haven't paid back the medical bills required to keep me alive and get me to 'plusable'). I do think I do what I can for Canada (even if a lot of it is vote against/rail against the Tories (or the worse-than-Tories, when they rise) in a hopeless cause).

And you can tell your cop story, again and again, to cops and to "law and order" Americans - because wasn't it better for America that it went that way rather than arrest, overnight in jail, student record, have to put it on every application from then on (including the one to the UofM) line that many people, then and now, that didn't look like you or me get? That, too, can be something you can "do for your country".

We may well be in agreement.

Kennedy's "Ask what you can do for your country" sounds grandiose and he was proud (with justification I believe) of his military service but yes indeed there are many ways to do things for your country. A cop telling me to stop acting like an idiot would be one of them. Looking back on my adolescence I think criticism was much more helpful to me than praise. But mostly I think of all the opportunities that were available. People vary a lot, so we need various ways to provide opportunity. The more the better.

[Gilithin]

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

(Wilfred Owen, 1921)

[Al Phalpha]

 pilowsky, on 2024-July-29, 19:20, said:

Quoting JFK?
So you've seen the light and decided to vote Democrat?

Well I did vote for JFK, not because he was a Democrat but because I thought he was devoted to what was best for the country. I vividly remember him standing up to the Russians. I also vividly remember him saying, "The price of freedom has always been high, but Americans have always paid it." Party labels are not important to me.

[pilowsky]

 Al Phalpha, on 2024-July-31, 19:29, said:

Well I did vote for JFK, not because he was a Democrat but because I thought he was devoted to what was best for the country. I vividly remember him standing up to the Russians. I also vividly remember him saying, "The price of freedom has always been high, but Americans have always paid it." Party labels are not important to me.

Then you may enjoy reading through the telegram exchanges between Kennedy and Khrushchev that are now available here.


Sitting as they do in the period when the relief that followed the end of WWII / GPW was fading and the era of relative quiet was beginning, they provide a fascinating insight into non-USA/UK/Euro thinking that seems to have led directly to the Putin/Xi antipathy towards the unipolar world.

[kenberg]

pilowsky, on 2024-July-31, 20:38, said:

Then you may enjoy reading through the telegram exchanges between Kennedy and Khrushchev that are now available here.


Sitting as they do in the period when the relief that followed the end of WWII / GPW was fading and the era of relative quiet was beginning, they provide a fascinating insight into non-USA/UK/Euro thinking that seems to have led directly to the Putin/Xi antipathy towards the unipolar world.

At least when I clicked on the link I just got one message. I found the series at

https://history.stat...961-63v06/comp1


I was completely unaware of this collection and I thank you.

[kenberg]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-July-31, 19:29, said:

Well I did vote for JFK, not because he was a Democrat but because I thought he was devoted to what was best for the country. I vividly remember him standing up to the Russians. I also vividly remember him saying, "The price of freedom has always been high, but Americans have always paid it." Party labels are not important to me.

Good God this means that you are as old as I am, maybe older. I voted for Kennedy when I was 21. I thought I had "oldest guy here" nailed down.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2024-August-01, 07:11, said:

Good God this means that you are as old as I am, maybe older. I voted for Kennedy when I was 21. I thought I had "oldest guy here" nailed down.

I don't know whether you're actually physically oldest, but you seem to be spiritually oldest. You always feel like the forum's graddad to me.

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2024-August-01, 11:27, said:

I don't know whether you're actually physically oldest, but you seem to be spiritually oldest. You always feel like the forum's graddad to me.

I am happy to give support and guidance to all you youngsters.

[pilowsky]

kenberg, on 2024-August-01, 07:03, said:

At least when I clicked on the link I just got one message.

There are little arrows on both sides of the page that send you backward or forward.
The link was to page 11. Yours was to page 1 (of the Kennedy Khrushchev telegrams).
The home page for the Historian is here.
The page for the Presidents is here.
It seems to be complete from Carter backwards but still partly or completely classified going forwards.
I assume you can go to Mar a Lago to look at the Trump "Administration".

[Al Phalpha]

kenberg, on 2024-August-01, 07:11, said:

I voted for Kennedy when I was 21.

FWIW, I was 22. Married. With a baby on the way. I will never forget November 22, 1963. My thoughts were, "This is not supposed to happen here." But it did. And history was forever changed. Thankfully we've both lived through it and life goes on. I wish you well "grandpa".

[kenberg]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-August-01, 18:29, said:

FWIW, I was 22. Married. With a baby on the way. I will never forget November 22, 1963. My thoughts were, "This is not supposed to happen here." But it did. And history was forever changed. Thankfully we've both lived through it and life goes on. I wish you well "grandpa".

I am not the oldest! But I accept the spiritual grandpa title Barry bestowed on me.

In 1960 I turned 21, graaduated from college, got married, started grad school, voted for Kennedy in that order. A busy year.

Ok, back to politics. We oldies let our minds wander sometimes. Wandering has its pleasures.

[Gilithin]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-July-31, 19:29, said:

Well I did vote for JFK, not because he was a Democrat but because I thought he was devoted to what was best for the country. I vividly remember him standing up to the Russians. I also vividly remember him saying, "The price of freedom has always been high, but Americans have always paid it." Party labels are not important to me.

No doubt you will be voting for the candidate most likely to stand up to the Russians in 2024 as well...

[Al Phalpha]

Gilithin, on 2024-August-02, 13:14, said:

No doubt you will be voting for the candidate most likely to stand up to the Russians in 2024 as well...

Actually I'm much more concerned about the invasion at our Southern border than I am about the Russians. I'll worry about the Russians later. We all have our priorities.

[Cyberyeti]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-August-02, 19:23, said:

Actually I'm much more concerned about the invasion at our Southern border than I am about the Russians. I'll worry about the Russians later. We all have our priorities.

Typical US right viewpoint sadly, Putin can take over most of Europe, but that isn't America so it doesn't matter.

Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukrainians Poles etc fought really hard to join the west, and you are happy to allow Putin to just swallow them up

[hrothgar]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-August-02, 19:23, said:

Actually I'm much more concerned about the invasion at our Southern border than I am about the Russians. I'll worry about the Russians later. We all have our priorities.

Sure, Jan

[kenberg]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-August-02, 19:23, said:

Actually I'm much more concerned about the invasion at our Southern border than I am about the Russians. I'll worry about the Russians later. We all have our priorities.

Perhaps you could elaborate.

My concerns about the border start with the chaos and the lack of realism/

Chaos: The USA is a nation, nations have borders, nations presumably control who can and who cannot cross the border, else what does it mean to have a border. We have lost that control.

Lack of realism: There are far more people who would like to enter the country than we (meaning the majority of the population) are prepared to accept. This needs to be stated explicitly and be a core element of planning.

One more thing along the same lines. Throughout history much of life in much of the world has been very difficult. I favor helping, we who have had, especially by historical standards, easy lives could help. But it is unrealistic to figure we will not also watch out for ourselves, and sometimes this will conflict with the commandment to help others.


I am more concerned about Russian agression in Ukraine than with the border, but I can be concerned about both.

And I am very concerned about Trump. Among many things, I believe that Trump and his followers believe that a fair and honest election means an election that he wins. The two statements, in their eyes, are equivalent. This can lead to trouble.

[Winstonm]

The words of a bot are easy to spot
on occasion; ask him what time he's
got, he answers the southern invasion.

[johnu]

Al Phalpha, on 2024-August-02, 19:23, said:

Actually I'm much more concerned about the invasion at our Southern border than I am about the Russians.

I doubt that you are "really" concerned, otherwise you would be outraged that Convicted Felon Trump ordered his cult members in Congress to vote against a bipartisan bill to implement changes in border policy so that Trump could continue to use this as a campaign issue. Was the border bill perfect? The fact it was a bipartisan bill means there were some compromises between the 2 sides, but if the border was actually a concern, then it's just dereliction of duty to do nothing.

In any case, border crossings are way down the last 9 months, and Mexico has a large say in border crossings as they control both their northern border with the US as well as their southern border where the non-Mexican immigrants are coming from. You would think that Mexico would spend some of the money that they didn't pay America to build the wall to improve their own border security.

[mycroft]

As someone with an interest in that particular question (at least los inviernos), I would have a lot to say about that myself. In particular I would ask why they are so ineffective in controlling that migration, and what country's policies are responsible for a lot of that why.

But it's a dangerous topic to talk about, mis amigos. So I shall stop there.

The first bit of JohnU's response - yeah, I'm 100% on board. Love to see the old talking points from the old soldiers of Karl Rove's "post-reality based community".