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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#21161 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-October-17, 17:45

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-October-17, 15:23, said:

If Canada's too cold, you could follow Randy Newman's advice:
[/size]

👍
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21162 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-October-18, 08:43

View PostWinstonm, on 2023-October-17, 07:18, said:

If the US makes an insurrectionist speaker of the house, what is next, an El Duce in the White House?
Damn, I wish Canada wasn't so cold.


Long ago, I was on a train from The Pas, in northern Manitoba, to Flin Flon, in even more northern Manitoba. I was chatting with a guy who was returning to Flin Flon after visiting friends in The Pas. He explained about the difference in the weather: When it is 40 below in Flin Flon it is 30 below in The Pas.

That's sort of where we are with the House Speaker. If the Rs can't agree, there will be no Speaker and the government will shut down in a few weeks. If the Rs agree on a Speaker, that Speaker will see to it that the government will shut down in a few weeks.
30 below or 40 below, what a choice.

Back in the 1950s, back when we were all Existentialists, I saw No Exit. That title is a succinct description of our current situation. It doesn't end well.
Ken
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#21163 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2023-October-18, 10:10

I support a national divorce.

Let the folks who want to live in an oversized Banana Republic (b/c that's exactly what those politics point towards) live in one.
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#21164 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-October-18, 14:37

So, is McHenry now 3rd in line to be President?
Non legit hoc
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#21165 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-October-18, 15:36

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-October-18, 14:37, said:

So, is McHenry now 3rd in line to be President?

The speaker pro tempore is not a part of the line of succession afaik.
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#21166 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-October-18, 17:21

Hes already 2nd in line to claim to still be president if he wants to do it.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21167 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-October-19, 16:49

The current activities in the House Speaker voting really make me throw my arms up in the air and want to scream. After the death threats came out, it seemed an ideal opportunity for Jim Jordan to make a statement asking his supporters not to do that, and I suspect that would have actually created some sympathy towards him from the (then 20, now 22) opposing him. Instead his silence on the matter tends to suggest he tacitly approves, or in the worst case may even be supporting, of those actions. Does this not sound like Fascism to people? putting a mob of Brown Coats on to opponents to intimidate them into doing what you want so as to give a facade of democracy to the authoritarian actions? I really wish someone from the GOP would have the courage to pout their head over the parapet and say something about these actions. They are still, after all, living in America, right? What is going on is seriously disturbing, just as much so as the Jan 6th coup attempt but I am not seeing many calling it out for what it is. Come on Americans - wake up already!!! The rest of the world still needs you!
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#21168 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-October-19, 19:14

View PostGilithin, on 2023-October-19, 16:49, said:

The current activities in the House Speaker voting really make me throw my arms up in the air and want to scream. After the death threats came out, it seemed an ideal opportunity for Jim Jordan to make a statement asking his supporters not to do that, and I suspect that would have actually created some sympathy towards him from the (then 20, now 22) opposing him. Instead his silence on the matter tends to suggest he tacitly approves, or in the worst case may even be supporting, of those actions. Does this not sound like Fascism to people? putting a mob of Brown Coats on to opponents to intimidate them into doing what you want so as to give a facade of democracy to the authoritarian actions? I really wish someone from the GOP would have the courage to pout their head over the parapet and say something about these actions. They are still, after all, living in America, right? What is going on is seriously disturbing, just as much so as the Jan 6th coup attempt but I am not seeing many calling it out for what it is. Come on Americans - wake up already!!! The rest of the world still needs you!

This is a rot multi-faceted that has occurred over decades and will not be eradicated easily or quickly. There is a strong 30 per cent of white nationalists, American brown shirts who prefer autocracy; gerrymandering and assaults on public education and a far right SCOTUS make quick solutions impossible.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21169 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-October-19, 20:36

Powell pleads guilty as the Kraken slowly slithers back to Loch Ness.
Non legit hoc
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#21170 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 12:55

Words such as "bizarre" and "unimaginable" now seem inadequate to describe our situation. Let's see.

1. Many Republicans still believe, or at least say they believe, that the 2020 election was stolen. The evidence for this belief is that Trump lost, and that is seen as impossible, so the election must have been stolen.

2. The former president summoned his followers to Washington, encouraged them to "stop the steal" and sat back and did nothing while his followers rampaged through Congress seeking to Kill Mike Pence.

3. Prominent Republicans described it as a normal tourist event.

4. Republicans, a majority in The House, have ousted Kevin McCarthy as speaker. I have been listening to interviews with prominent Republicans about this. They blame the Democrats for McCarthy's ouster.

5. The man that the Republicans appear to want as Speaker, Jim Jordan, has at best modest experience at accomplishing anything, he still denies the validity of the 2020 election, and will almost certainly shut down the government if he ever becomes Speaker.

6. The Republican coalition has no idea what to do about this.

And now, with all of the above, we come to the most remarkable fact: If by some angelic intervention, we could hold an emergency elections for Representatives to Congress, it is not completely clear that Democrats would win control of the House. If the world were normal, meaning if the world at least somewhat resembled the world that I grew up in, virtually every Republican in the House would be turned out of office. They are a menace, they are incompetent, they are an embarrassment, they do not belong in charge of anything.

But now, and I am very serious, we must all ask ourselves how we got here and how we go forward if indeed we can go forward. I am pretty sure that, if we are to find a way back, we must look at ourselves as well as others. How could this happen? The situation is crazy, it's nuts, it's a disaster. We need to seek out sanity and we need to support sanity.

I am 84. The country has never been in greater danger during my lifetime.
Ken
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#21171 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 14:32

View Postkenberg, on 2023-October-20, 12:55, said:

I am 84. The country has never been in greater danger during my lifetime.

I am not 84 but I see things similarly. It is very easy to overdramatise current events and consider them as more important than the past. Not to diminish its importance, but I see this with climate change. Yes it is serious existential challenge but not in my eyes more so than, for example, food production/overpopulation in the years prior to the discovery of high-yield crops. We do have the ability to fix it - mostly we just have to decide who is paying for it and are currently just hoping that the equivalent of those high-yield crops comes along in the meantime so noone does. But the situation in America right now is for me getting quite close to a precipice and this is one reason I feel like ordinary people really need to start sitting up and taking notice. There is right now an incredibly easy path for 40% of the electorate, perhaps less, to seize permanent control of the country that will be very difficult to reverse.
So you ask how to go forward. In my view, while gun violence, health care and abortion get all the headlines, the most important piece of legislation that Congress could pass would be a new Voter-Rights Bill creating independent/bi-partisan councils for re-districting. Limits on gerrymandering would be a major step in limiting the effectiveness of attempts at minority rule and, frankly, would lessen abuses on both sides of the aisle. I could give you at least half dozen additional steps that will be helpful but this is the most basic one. I find it difficult to believe that the overwhelming majority of American people would be against such a resolution.
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#21172 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 15:08

View PostGilithin, on 2023-October-20, 14:32, said:

Limits on gerrymandering would be a major step in limiting the effectiveness of attempts at minority rule and, frankly, would lessen abuses on both sides of the aisle.

I agree. Not only would this limit minority rule by geography, but it would mean the election of more centrists in general. And yes, there are other steps, but this one would help a lot.
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#21173 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 15:12

View PostPassedOut, on 2023-October-20, 15:08, said:

I agree. Not only would this limit minority rule by geography, but it would mean the election of more centrists in general. And yes, there are other steps, but this one would help a lot.


Such a law would never pass Congress. Even if it did, do you really think this Supreme Court would find it constitutional? Its a nice dream but I think we are past anything like this happening.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#21174 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 16:15

View PostGilithin, on 2023-October-20, 14:32, said:

There is right now an incredibly easy path for 40% of the electorate, perhaps less, to seize permanent control of the country that will be very difficult to reverse.

I don't know if there are more blatant examples, but Wisconsin is recognized as a crown jewel of gerrymandering voting districts.

Wisconsin has been a definition of swing state, with Trump beating Clinton by less than a percentage point in 2016, and Biden beating Trump by less than a percentage point in 2020.

Yet, QOP in the legislature have so gerrymandered Wisconsin voting districts that in the Wisconsin State Senate, QOP have 22 out of 33 senate seats, and in the Assembly, QOP hold 64 out of 99 seats. QOP held a majority in the Wisconsin Supreme Court so of course, any challenges to gerrymandered districts had no chance of succeeding. Wisconsin recently elected a Democratic Supreme Court judge which gave Democrats a majority of the Supreme Court. Coincidentally, there currently is a lawsuit to draw new voting district maps which would presumably give Democrats a fair chance to win majorities in the state senate and assembly.

Wisconsin's supermajority QOP response to the lawsuit is to threaten to impeach the new Democratic justice, which would prevent her from voting in any cases that come before the court. The other part of their plan would be to just sit on an impeachment and not have a trial in the senate, because they don't have the 2/3 of the senate required to impeach. Without the new Democratic justice being allowed to vote, the state supreme court would be deadlocked at 4-4 so no action on the gerrymandering lawsuit could be resolved.

As far as the US Supreme Court goes, they are a disgrace and a clear reason to impose term limits on federal judges.
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#21175 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 17:02

View Postjohnu, on 2023-October-20, 16:15, said:

I don't know if there are more blatant examples, but Wisconsin is recognized as a crown jewel of gerrymandering voting districts.

Wisconsin has been a definition of swing state, with Trump beating Clinton by less than a percentage point in 2016, and Biden beating Trump by less than a percentage point in 2020.

Yet, QOP in the legislature have so gerrymandered Wisconsin voting districts that in the Wisconsin State Senate, QOP have 22 out of 33 senate seats, and in the Assembly, QOP hold 64 out of 99 seats. QOP held a majority in the Wisconsin Supreme Court so of course, any challenges to gerrymandered districts had no chance of succeeding. Wisconsin recently elected a Democratic Supreme Court judge which gave Democrats a majority of the Supreme Court. Coincidentally, there currently is a lawsuit to draw new voting district maps which would presumably give Democrats a fair chance to win majorities in the state senate and assembly.

Wisconsin's supermajority QOP response to the lawsuit is to threaten to impeach the new Democratic justice, which would prevent her from voting in any cases that come before the court. The other part of their plan would be to just sit on an impeachment and not have a trial in the senate, because they don't have the 2/3 of the senate required to impeach. Without the new Democratic justice being allowed to vote, the state supreme court would be deadlocked at 4-4 so no action on the gerrymandering lawsuit could be resolved.

As far as the US Supreme Court goes, they are a disgrace and a clear reason to impose term limits on federal judges.

Oh come on, how can you talk about one vote one value in a state where less than 5% of the population produce 90% of the milk.
Non legit hoc
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#21176 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 20:28

View Postawm, on 2023-October-20, 15:12, said:

Such a law would never pass Congress. Even if it did, do you really think this Supreme Court would find it constitutional? Its a nice dream but I think we are past anything like this happening.

States can do it by themselves, as some are doing. The Supreme Court has ruled that districts gerrymandered for political advantage, if not based on race, are constitutional. But I'd be very surprised if even this court would rule that non-gerrymandered maps are unconstitutional!

Let's see if Wisconsin succeeds in breaking up their gerrymandered districts, as they are trying to do right now.
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#21177 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-October-20, 20:42

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-October-20, 17:02, said:

Oh come on, how can you talk about one vote one value in a state where less than 5% of the population produce 90% of the milk.

The cream rises to the top.
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#21178 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2023-October-21, 02:21

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-October-20, 17:02, said:

Oh come on, how can you talk about one vote one value in a state where less than 5% of the population produce 90% of the milk.

That's a very cheesy statement.
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#21179 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-October-21, 05:34

View Postjohnu, on 2023-October-21, 02:21, said:

That's a very cheesy statement.


That's the whey I roll.
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#21180 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-October-21, 14:39

View Postkenberg, on 2023-October-20, 12:55, said:

Words such as "bizarre" and "unimaginable" now seem inadequate to describe our situation. Let's see.

1. Many Republicans still believe, or at least say they believe, that the 2020 election was stolen. The evidence for this belief is that Trump lost, and that is seen as impossible, so the election must have been stolen.

2. The former president summoned his followers to Washington, encouraged them to "stop the steal" and sat back and did nothing while his followers rampaged through Congress seeking to Kill Mike Pence.

3. Prominent Republicans described it as a normal tourist event.

4. Republicans, a majority in The House, have ousted Kevin McCarthy as speaker. I have been listening to interviews with prominent Republicans about this. They blame the Democrats for McCarthy's ouster.

5. The man that the Republicans appear to want as Speaker, Jim Jordan, has at best modest experience at accomplishing anything, he still denies the validity of the 2020 election, and will almost certainly shut down the government if he ever becomes Speaker.

6. The Republican coalition has no idea what to do about this.

And now, with all of the above, we come to the most remarkable fact: If by some angelic intervention, we could hold an emergency elections for Representatives to Congress, it is not completely clear that Democrats would win control of the House. If the world were normal, meaning if the world at least somewhat resembled the world that I grew up in, virtually every Republican in the House would be turned out of office. They are a menace, they are incompetent, they are an embarrassment, they do not belong in charge of anything.

But now, and I am very serious, we must all ask ourselves how we got here and how we go forward if indeed we can go forward. I am pretty sure that, if we are to find a way back, we must look at ourselves as well as others. How could this happen? The situation is crazy, it's nuts, it's a disaster. We need to seek out sanity and we need to support sanity.

I am 84. The country has never been in greater danger during my lifetime.


The danger is that 91% of the Republicans in the House majority were willing to make an insurrectionist who was in on the planning and an active participant in the planned delay tactics the speaker, which would have made presidential elections moot and no way to eradicate enough gerrymandered seats to make significant changes. So yes we are pretty well screwed when half the voters back Putin and Orban.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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