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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#20701 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-January-14, 12:59

View Postkenberg, on 2023-January-14, 08:43, said:

True, this is a bonanza for Trump but I made it clear that, for myself, I do not regard Biden's actions and Trump's actions as remotely equivalent so "false equivalence" does not apply to me. I am saying that there are many reasons why Top Secret documents should not be left lying around who knows where. I am not happy with the general idea that "Well, sure, these things happen". I am willing to believe that yes they do happen, but they should not happen.

This will probably be an over-simplification but perhaps it is a start: An aide to high-level person X checks out a Top Secret document on behalf of X. The document should have a number, and X should receive a notice that this document has been checked out on his behalf, and X should acknowledge receipt of this notification. X is now responsible for this document. After some length of time, perhaps six months, X could be notified that the document has not yet been returned, after which X either returns it or says no he still needs it. If X is leaving his position, maybe his term has come to an end or he is retiring or whatever, then he should get a notice that he is still in possession of unreturned Top Secret documents. He should then return them.

The above is just a first try, but the problem needs to be addressed. Secret and Top Secret documents should not just be forgotten. Documents classified as Confidential present the additional problem that, as I understand it, almost any observation of anything can get stamped "Confidential". But still, if we are going to classify documents with some secrecy rating then we should treat that classification seriously.

Short version: Sure, Trump is a problem, but that is not the only reason Top Secret documents should not be left lying around.


I am not in the slightest giving Biden or anyone else a pass for mishandling documents. I am critical of our media who will treat this as a he said /she said equivalency and allow the right ink space and air time to feign outrage, and thus selling to the not-so-interested-to-dig-deeply that you think the Democrats should win back the idea that both parties are equally crooked.

Biden did it; he shouldn’t have.
Trump did it; he shouldn’t have.

These actions are not the same. Do you think any of the mainstream media will bother to explain how they differ and that difference is what matters?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20702 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-January-14, 13:13

A PS: More troubling to me is that it has been recently reported that Biden does not think he can trust the Secret Service, and an FBI agent refused to serve a warrant on a January 6th suspect.

Trump supporters embedded in the government is more frightening than Biden’s sloppiness.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20703 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 02:58

View Postkenberg, on 2023-January-14, 08:43, said:

I am saying that there are many reasons why Top Secret documents should not be left lying around who knows where.
...
This will probably be an over-simplification but perhaps it is a start: An aide to high-level person X checks out a Top Secret document on behalf of X.
...
unreturned Top Secret documents.
...

Secret and Top Secret documents should not just be forgotten.
...
but that is not the only reason Top Secret documents should not be left lying around.

In have read not much about this case. Buy I am curious. Ken mentions "Top Secret" again and again and again. The NY Times article https://www.nytimes....s-timeline.html "What we know so far" never mentions these words.

Ken, where did you get the information that the Biden case involved "Top Secret" documents? There is a big difference between that and "classified".
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#20704 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 03:02

View Postcherdano, on 2023-January-15, 02:58, said:

In have read not much about this case. Buy I am curious. Ken mentions "Top Secret" again and again and again. The NY Times article https://www.nytimes....s-timeline.html "What we know so far" never mentions these words.

Ken, where did you get the information that the Biden case involved "Top Secret" documents? There is a big difference between that and "classified".


From every other news source? E.g. NBC.
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#20705 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 06:56

Maybe I should be more precise: were these documents marked "Top Secret"?
And I would prefer a text reference, not a video link.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#20706 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 07:11

View Postcherdano, on 2023-January-15, 02:58, said:

In have read not much about this case. Buy I am curious. Ken mentions "Top Secret" again and again and again. The NY Times article https://www.nytimes....s-timeline.html "What we know so far" never mentions these words.

Ken, where did you get the information that the Biden case involved "Top Secret" documents? There is a big difference between that and "classified".


There was something on the PBS Newshour that mentioned that all three classifications, Confidential, Secret, Top Secret, were found. Well, I could have heard it wrong, but I think that was it. Perhaps they said "reported as" rather than "known to be".

Added: Here is from a WaPo article, see https://www.washingt...meline-release/

Quote

Some of the classified material found in the Biden Penn Center office was marked top secret, according to people familiar with the matter, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe an ongoing investigation.


I can imagine the Times decided to hold off on this until an official statement is made, that could be a while. WaPo and PBS are both reasonably careful so I doubt that it is just casual gossip but it is not an official announcement.

Here is another paragraph from the same WaPo article:

Quote

This adviser and a second Biden adviser said they think the president has no criminal exposure in the case and that the improper handling and storage of the records was the result of sloppiness by aides rushing to pack up Biden’s vice-presidential office. Biden, aides said, has expressed deep frustration with aides for what he sees as clumsiness and is frustrated that Republicans will, in his belief, falsely equate his actions with those of former president Donald Trump.


Ok, he can express frustration with his aides if that suits him but I am, for the most part, expressing frustration with the whole system. If a document gets classified Top Secret then its whereabouts is important. It should not be left somewhere so that sloppy aides can leave it lying around. It would not surprise me to learn that this happens fairly often. I realize that there is much to do at the end of a term of office but the event is known well in advance. There should be a mechanism that requires a check, well before the last day in office, where person X, as I called him, is informed of whether he has or has not returned all classified documents. And X should be careful enough so that if he is told that some Top Secret document has not been returned then he should not be saying "Gee, I wonder where I put that".

Either these classifications mean something or they don't.
Ken
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#20707 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 13:45

Well, there should be a mechanism when an ex-president steals classified documents then refuses to honor a subpoena for their return. Oh, wait, that’s called jail.

If the thief were poor and black what are the chances he would yet to even be charged with a crime?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20708 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 14:32

View Postcherdano, on 2023-January-15, 06:56, said:

Maybe I should be more precise: were these documents marked "Top Secret"?
And I would prefer a text reference, not a video link.


Are you suggesting - in this day and age - that there is an important reliability difference where NYT in newsprint is > than NBC?
Just out of interest, why is 'text' on your monitor, more reliable and trustworthy.

Multiple news source out there indicates that at least one of the documents was marked "Top Secret - SCI".
Which is the highest classification marking.
Of course in this D&A both sources might be inaccurate (fake news?).

Also the documents were first found on November 2nd just before the election.
Whereas Trump was raided by the FBI with the press present (not sure how many were newspaper writers).

The main difference is that Trump attempted to obstruct.
The obstruction not the possession of classified documents appears to the big difference between T and B.
It's not a good look.






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#20709 User is offline   El Kabong 

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Posted 2023-January-15, 19:36

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-January-15, 14:32, said:

Are you suggesting - in this day and age - that there is an important reliability difference where NYT in newsprint is > than NBC?
Just out of interest, why is 'text' on your monitor, more reliable and trustworthy.

Multiple news source out there indicates that at least one of the documents was marked "Top Secret - SCI".
Which is the highest classification marking.
Of course in this D&A both sources might be inaccurate (fake news?).

Also the documents were first found on November 2nd just before the election.
Whereas Trump was raided by the FBI with the press present (not sure how many were newspaper writers).

The main difference is that Trump attempted to obstruct.
The obstruction not the possession of classified documents appears to the big difference between T and B.
It's not a good look.

Here's my question:
1. Will Trump go to prison?
2. Will Biden go to prison?
3. Will the average citizen (of any country) be greatly affected by either outcome?
4. As Rodney King asked, "Why can't we all just get along?".
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#20710 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-16, 00:06

View PostEl Kabong, on 2023-January-15, 19:36, said:

Here's my question:
1. Will Trump go to prison?
2. Will Biden go to prison?
3. Will the average citizen (of any country) be greatly affected by either outcome?
4. As Rodney King asked, "Why can't we all just get along?".


1. Hopefully
2. Unlikely
3. Yes
4. Why do birds sing?
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#20711 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-January-16, 08:35

View PostEl Kabong, on 2023-January-15, 19:36, said:

Here's my question:
1. Will Trump go to prison?
2. Will Biden go to prison?
3. Will the average citizen (of any country) be greatly affected by either outcome?
4. As Rodney King asked, "Why can't we all just get along?".


Good questions, of course I do not know the answer to 1,2,4, although the answer to 3 must be yes.

Starting with Biden, as I see it. I could never leave a Top Secret document lying around because I could never be in possession of a Top Secret document. I assume that when a person is given access to Top Secret documents he is also expected to handle them responsibly. What are the legal consequences of failing to do so? Beats me, but I doubt that he can pass off the responsibility to sloppy aides. I doubt he will go to prison. I expect there will be a political cost.

Now for Trump. Trump is a god-awful person. Being a god-awful person is not illegal. I expect that many things that he did were illegal but what to focus on? We have had extensive congressional investigations, and recommendations to the DOJ, now there are special counsels, I cannot predict the outcome. For me, it's the Jan 6 insurrection that is the most prison-worthy. It was not just something that happened, it was designed to happen and Trump was the designer.

Questions 3 and 4 sort of go together. I'll put it this way: I usually vote D. I have always had friends that usually vote R, we do not try to convert each other. I have a friend who is a retired Methodist minister, still (he is 84 like I am) active in church doings. I stopped going to church when I was 14. We get along fine. But if someone wants to spend his time, and my time, trying to convince me that Trump won the 2020 election then that's not going to go well. Btw, if you were to score us on a left-right scale my minister friend would surely score further left than I do.

People are complex. We should try to find this interesting and listen to them. Having weird views is ok, beating your wife is not ok. And encouraging people to march into congress with weapons is not ok. At least for those of us who live here in the US, getting these things straight, what is weird but ok versus what is not ok, is very important.
Ken
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#20712 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2023-January-16, 14:30

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-January-15, 14:32, said:

Multiple news source out there indicates that at least one of the documents was marked "Top Secret - SCI".
Which is the highest classification marking.
Of course in this D&A both sources might be inaccurate (fake news?).

The problem these days with "multiple news sources" is that it's not uncommon that they're all just repeating information that came from the same ultimate source. It can be hard to tell because there are multiple games of telephone going on.

#20713 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-January-16, 17:03

View Postbarmar, on 2023-January-16, 14:30, said:

The problem these days with "multiple news sources" is that it's not uncommon that they're all just repeating information that came from the same ultimate source. It can be hard to tell because there are multiple games of telephone going on.


Agree, a big problem in this 'content' age is that there are so many hungry microphones to feed and pages to fill that the truth can become a very low priority.
Santosing is a great way to fill the void.
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#20714 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-January-16, 18:27

View Postbarmar, on 2023-January-16, 14:30, said:

The problem these days with "multiple news sources" is that it's not uncommon that they're all just repeating information that came from the same ultimate source. It can be hard to tell because there are multiple games of telephone going on.

So true. It feels like the age of Ben Bradley occurred on planet far, far away.
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#20715 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2023-January-18, 10:41

For me, the biggest change with news is that it has become overwhelming. In the 1950s I followed the Korean War closely. I was aware of the 1954 French defeat in Dien Bien Phu but I could not tell you much about it. I was aware of the Suez crisis of 1956 but I could not tell you much about it. Now I hear about the war in Ukraine, the insurrection in Brazil, the border troubles, the Jan 6 hearings, the floods in California to name just a few of many. They are all important, but taken together they are exhausting.

Oh. And then there is https://www.washingt...states-to-live/
Apparently, there is data to show that Minnesota is second only to Massachusetts in "well-being", whatever that means. I have fond memories of skating, biking, and swimming, but it seems to me that any such result is greatly dependent on how "well-being" is defined. Still, it gives me bragging rights. Maryland comes in 25th. What am I doing here?
Ken
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#20716 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-January-18, 11:39

View Postkenberg, on 2023-January-18, 10:41, said:

For me, the biggest change with news is that it has become overwhelming. In the 1950s I followed the Korean War closely. I was aware of the 1954 French defeat in Dien Bien Phu but I could not tell you much about it. I was aware of the Suez crisis of 1956 but I could not tell you much about it. Now I hear about the war in Ukraine, the insurrection in Brazil, the border troubles, the Jan 6 hearings, the floods in California to name just a few of many. They are all important, but taken together they are exhausting.

Oh. And then there is https://www.washingt...states-to-live/
Apparently, there is data to show that Minnesota is second only to Massachusetts in "well-being", whatever that means. I have fond memories of skating, biking, and swimming, but it seems to me that any such result is greatly dependent on how "well-being" is defined. Still, it gives me bragging rights. Maryland comes in 25th. What am I doing here?


Your post reminded me of something I read but don’t remember where. The point though was the speed at which news is delivered has overwhelmed our abilities to grasp its significance.

In the early 1800s letters were delivered and news traveled at the speed of horses. Now when Putin farts we smell it instantly.
Bad borst.
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#20717 User is offline   El Kabong 

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Posted 2023-January-18, 19:04

View Postbarmar, on 2023-January-16, 14:30, said:

The problem these days with "multiple news sources" is that it's not uncommon that they're all just repeating information that came from the same ultimate source. It can be hard to tell because there are multiple games of telephone going on.

The WH "press briefings" are a total joke. Her handlers send poor little JKP (who is being paid $180,000/year) out there to read talking points and never answer a legitimate question. It would be laughable were it not so sad.
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#20718 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-January-18, 22:42

View PostEl Kabong, on 2023-January-18, 19:04, said:

The WH "press briefings" are a total joke. Her handlers send poor little JKP (who is being paid $180,000/year) out there to read talking points and never answer a legitimate question. It would be laughable were it not so sad.

You preferred it when the press sec just spouted lies that were being passed off as talking points?
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#20719 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2023-January-21, 13:31

View PostGilithin, on 2023-January-18, 22:42, said:

You preferred it when the press sec just spouted lies that were being passed off as talking points?


You are talking to the (con) artist formerly known as _ _ _ _.
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#20720 User is offline   El Kabong 

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Posted 2023-January-21, 18:15

View PostGilithin, on 2023-January-18, 22:42, said:

You preferred it when the press sec just spouted lies that were being passed off as talking points?

LOL. https://www.youtube....h?v=POG3Nw53XDM
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