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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#18841 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 14:26

Quote

"liar", "racist", "sexist", "fascist" and the like

If the shoe fits....

#18842 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 19:37

I just watched (well skipped over quite a bit of) the three-hour presentation to the Arizona Senate of the "Audit".
The first part was a presentation by a person with many impressive sounding qualifications - until you read his Wikipedia entry - Shiva Ayurradai.
Among his many achievements was the invention of EMAIL.


The takeaway from the audit was that quite a few votes were flipped from Biden to Trump.
If the elections were conducted by the Cyber ninjas - who checked the ballots using a DLSR (sic) camera (whatever that is) - Biden would be President with a wider margin - the same applied to the Senate race.


Still, there was something there for everyone.
The main conclusion was the elections should be run carefully and be secure.
Good idea.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18843 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 20:28

 barmar, on 2021-September-24, 14:26, said:

If the shoe fits....

Or “the fool sh*ts”…
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18844 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-September-24, 22:13

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-24, 19:37, said:

The main conclusion was the elections should be run carefully and be secure.

You miss the point. In America, "safe and secure elections" is bell whistle code for finding ways to stop black and brown people from voting.
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#18845 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted Yesterday, 00:53

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-24, 22:13, said:

You miss the point. In America, "safe and secure elections" is bell whistle code for finding ways to stop black and brown people from voting.


dog whistle - and good to see irony is dead.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18846 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted Yesterday, 10:53

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-25, 00:53, said:

dog whistle

You are right - I must have been thinking of bell end when replying for some reason. :blink:
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#18847 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted Yesterday, 14:16

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-25, 10:53, said:

You are right - I must have been thinking of bell end when replying for some reason. :blink:


Or bellwether?
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18848 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted Yesterday, 14:58

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-24, 19:37, said:

The first part was a presentation by a person with many impressive sounding qualifications - until you read his Wikipedia entry - Shiva Ayurradai.
Among his many achievements was the invention of EMAIL.

Ayurradai is a legend in his own mind. It it true he also invented India?
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#18849 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted Yesterday, 16:34

View Postjohnu, on 2021-September-25, 14:58, said:

Ayurradai is a legend in his own mind. It it true he also invented India?


Possibly, but I thought it was a fairly modest achievement given that India is only a subcontinent.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18850 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted Yesterday, 16:52

 pilowsky, on 2021-September-25, 16:34, said:

Possibly, but I thought it was a fairly modest achievement given that India is only a subcontinent.

Which continent couldn’t play?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18851 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted Yesterday, 18:22

This could be an opportunity.

I have long rejected and still reject the idea that Trumpies are all alike. A lot of people don't much follow politics. I follow politics a good deal less than some who post here and there are many who follow politics a good deal less than I do. Yes they can then get caught up in craziness. Some are permanently attached. others are not. Or at least I hope that some are not. We shall see. We need some people to say "Maybe listening to this guy was a mistake". Could happen. With some, not with everyone.

I realize that any optimism, even limited and uncertain optimism, is out of fashion. Too bad.
Ken
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#18852 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted Yesterday, 23:32

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-September-25, 14:16, said:

Or bellwether?

No, I am sure you would never make me think of bellwether.
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#18853 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted Today, 00:09

View PostGilithin, on 2021-September-25, 23:32, said:

No, I am sure you would never make me think of bellwether.


baa
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek, J'ai toujours misé sur l'étrange gentillesse des robots.
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#18854 User is online   thepossum 

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Posted Today, 03:45

I love the fallacious ideas of bellwether seats. They amuse me intensely

They always go with the government in power except the occasional time they don't
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#18855 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted Today, 10:12

View Postkenberg, on 2021-September-25, 18:22, said:

This could be an opportunity.

I have long rejected and still reject the idea that Trumpies are all alike. A lot of people don't much follow politics. I follow politics a good deal less than some who post here and there are many who follow politics a good deal less than I do. Yes they can then get caught up in craziness. Some are permanently attached. others are not. Or at least I hope that some are not. We shall see. We need some people to say "Maybe listening to this guy was a mistake". Could happen. With some, not with everyone.

I realize that any optimism, even limited and uncertain optimism, is out of fashion. Too bad.


Although it may not seem like it, I happen to agree quite often with your viewpoints. Here, again, I basically agree. But what I want to know is why this has happened.

It is my judgment that the driver of our division is information and who we rely on for that information. My wife has a sister who is steeped in far-right propaganda - inundated and brainwashed. It is impossible to reach her with any conflicting information - it is automatically rejected as fake or false. It is combined with religious overtones of the evangelical bias. The world is ending and here are the signs kind of thinking.

Having been raised in a near-cult-like evangelical church environment, I think I have a particularly deep understanding of the allure to many of these people - it is the intense emotional eruptions that occur from time-to-time within the group. This is not an intellectual exercise; it is an emotional kidnapping. It is the rapture of shared anger.

Behaviorists tell us that the most powerful behavioral modification occurs with intermittent positive reinforcement. Q-Anon proclaims dates when something magical will happen; those dates come and go with nothing happens; then, January 6th happens. As a good friend in Las Vegas once told me, his addiction to gambling was based on the euphoria of anticipation - the winning and losing were irrelevant. Only continual playing fed his illness. It is no different with Q-Anon. Or with Trump. What matters is the anticipation.

I have gleaned that you are not big on psychological explanations but I think that is the answer. And if we can't figure out how to get these anticipation addicts off their information sources of choice and teach them critical thinking, we are in deep trouble.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18856 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted Today, 11:25

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-September-26, 10:12, said:

Although it may not seem like it, I happen to agree quite often with your viewpoints. Here, again, I basically agree. But what I want to know is why this has happened.

It is my judgment that the driver of our division is information and who we rely on for that information. My wife has a sister who is steeped in far-right propaganda - inundated and brainwashed. It is impossible to reach her with any conflicting information - it is automatically rejected as fake or false. It is combined with religious overtones of the evangelical bias. The world is ending and here are the signs kind of thinking.

Having been raised in a near-cult-like evangelical church environment, I think I have a particularly deep understanding of the allure to many of these people - it is the intense emotional eruptions that occur from time-to-time within the group. This is not an intellectual exercise; it is an emotional kidnapping. It is the rapture of shared anger.

Behaviorists tell us that the most powerful behavioral modification occurs with intermittent positive reinforcement. Q-Anon proclaims dates when something magical will happen; those dates come and go with nothing happens; then, January 6th happens. As a good friend in Las Vegas once told me, his addiction to gambling was based on the euphoria of anticipation - the winning and losing were irrelevant. Only continual playing fed his illness. It is no different with Q-Anon. Or with Trump. What matters is the anticipation.

I have gleaned that you are not big on psychological explanations but I think that is the answer. And if we can't figure out how to get these anticipation addicts off their information sources of choice and teach them critical thinking, we are in deep trouble.


Psychology is relevant, as is sociology and upbringing. A few words about our different childhoods.
My mother was brought up as a Seventh-Day Adventist but she liked to drink and she liked to play poker so bye-bye to the Adventists. My father went through Ellis Island in 1910 but became a citizen only in 1937 or maybe 1938. I was taken home for adoption in 1939 and my guess is their wish to adopt played a role in his decision to become a citizen. They also joined a church, the Presbyterian, somewhere along the way. I can recall no religious discussions at home, they wished to be accepted in the community I imagine. In short, practicality trumped ideology.


I think appealing to practicality might save us from Trumpism. DT does not give a FF (Flying F) about anyone other than himself, and the hope is that people can eventually come to see this. A big problem is that many working people don't think that the Dems give a FF about them either unless they are gay or black or something that falls into some such category.

So we have a problem Practicality might be an answer.

Oh, yes, about religious discussion at home. The minister came by to convince my mother she should come to church more often. She said she likes to sleep late on Sundays. He said something about early to bed etc. She said that her understanding was "Early to bed, early to rise, your wife goes out with the other guys" All very practical. When I was 14 the minister made another try by telling me I had to get my parents into church more often so that they wouldn't burn in the fires of hell. I decided it was also time for me to stop attending.
Ken
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