Democracy in action
#21
Posted 2015-July-21, 07:24
Ok, the garden has been replaced with the grocery store and my mother has been replaced by the government. What should I expect? I can already hear the Blackshoe answer of "Nothing good", but still I persist.
All food has been modified. Sure, but perhaps GMOs are in a different category. Still, it is not my plan to read five scientific papers before shopping at the store. So if, as suggested above, the FDA plans to examine GMOs on an individual basis and decide which are safe and which are not, I am inclined to accept this, with caution. The caution comes from realizing there are huge financial interests involved. I would like to think that science always triumphs, but it doesn't. And even in the best of worlds, we sometimes have to wait for the revised scientific view.
It's a bit tricky. When the government takes on the role of making our food safe, we have to beware of assuming that anything that is sold in stores must be safe since if it were not safe then it would be banned. Safe is not just yes or no, there are degrees. We still have to watch out for ourselves.
All in all, I see no real alternative to having the government taking a strong role in deciding on the safety of the foods that are sold in stores. We buy our vegetables and eggs through a CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) but this is because they taste better. I don't really check into just how their hens are fed.
Bottom line: The bill in question seems reasonable to me. It seems right to worry a bit about whether the reviews of foods and drugs are conducted in a responsible manner. This applies in general, not just to GMOs.
#22
Posted 2015-July-21, 09:49
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#23
Posted 2015-July-21, 10:11
blackshoe, on 2015-July-20, 15:35, said:
If not the government, then who?
We could have an independent group like Consumer Reports or Underwriters Laboratories, but without government backing they wouldn't have any teeth.
FDA's testing requirements may be onerous, which is why drugs that are available in other countries are not available here. But that doesn't mean that regulation in general is wrong, it just means their requirements may be too strict. Is that even enshrined in law, or just FDA tradition? It's probably an overreaction to past problems like Thalidomide, DES and Vioxx.
#24
Posted 2015-July-21, 23:36
barmar, on 2015-July-21, 10:11, said:
We could have an independent group like Consumer Reports or Underwriters Laboratories, but without government backing they wouldn't have any teeth.
FDA's testing requirements may be onerous, which is why drugs that are available in other countries are not available here. But that doesn't mean that regulation in general is wrong, it just means their requirements may be too strict. Is that even enshrined in law, or just FDA tradition? It's probably an overreaction to past problems like Thalidomide, DES and Vioxx.
You get all the fact correct except all of those who are harmed by FDA.
Main point humans are bad at risk.
With that said USA will never permit non FDA allowed drugs so non issue except in theory world.
Friedman discussed this decades ago...nothing changes.
"....The economist Milton Friedman has claimed that the regulatory process is inherently biased against approval of some worthy drugs, because the adverse effects of wrongfully banning a useful drug are undetectable, while the consequences of mistakenly approving a harmful drug are highly publicised and that therefore the FDA will take the action that will result in the least public condemnation of the FDA regardless of the health consequences.[4][5]..."
https://en.wikipedia..._Administration
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Taleb discusses the God complex many of us have when it comes to doctors.
I have quoted him in many other threads on this topic.
#25
Posted 2015-July-22, 03:03
Also, for once ( ) I agree with Ed that this shouldn't really be the govt's business. We have independent organizations like the Soil Organization which police their own voluntary labelings and consumers that don't trust unlabeled food can vote with their shopping baskets. Someone has to sort out which criteria a product has to fullfill in order to be allowed to cary a non-GMO label and I am not convinced that the govt is particularly well equiped to do it.
But that is just my opinion and if 90% of the US consumers would prefer mandatory labeling then I wouldn't be opposed to it. It's not a big deal. Both as a consumer and as a shareholder in some food manufacturer I wouldn't lose too much sleep on this issue anyway.
Whether GMO food is good or bad for consumers, farmers and the environment are interesting questions but I don't think it is so relevant for this discussion. It is about consumers wanting (for whatever reason, rational or otherwise) labeling, and how then to acchieve that in the most practical way.
#26
Posted 2015-July-22, 09:30
In the case of GMO labeling, if we don't have standard rules, I suspect that the industry will acceded to the demands of the vocal pundits who think that there's something wrong with GMO food, despite evidence to the contrary. Most consumers aren't competent to judge, and they'll see the labels as a Mark of Cain, and avoid those products. While an independent agency could fill in the role, there's little incentive for the industry to set one up for this.
#27
Posted 2015-July-22, 10:07
Since they are involved with risk assessment and management, they would balance out the cost of potential harm versus the premium paid by the industry to evaluate their products. Actuarial calculations would help with any long-term side effects. This has the downside of reducing human suffering to facts and figures as well as the obvious possibility of collusion or profit-optimization by the insurers. But then, is there an upside?
#28
Posted 2015-July-22, 14:52
I want to know if the system is hiding the fact that $company_I_dont_like is involved in the food I'm buying, because they are deliberately trying to capture all farmers, and I don't like that. I want to know if $company_using_sweatshops is involved in the brand of clothes I'm buying because I want to discourage that behaviour.
In both and more of those cases, many many companies (not just the specific ones I know about) are spending a *lot* of money trying to make it harder for me to make those decisions. I wonder why.
Do I care if it's safe - for me - to use these products? Given that I'm living on borrowed time already, no. Does it matter? No. Business is actively trying to unfree the market by removing information from the customer end; I'm the customer end; it's "not fair" if I actively resist?
#29
Posted 2015-July-23, 10:10
mycroft, on 2015-July-22, 14:52, said:
I want to know if the system is hiding the fact that $company_I_dont_like is involved in the food I'm buying, because they are deliberately trying to capture all farmers, and I don't like that. I want to know if $company_using_sweatshops is involved in the brand of clothes I'm buying because I want to discourage that behaviour.
How would a label that says something like "This product was produced using genetically-engineered wheat" further that desire?
This seems more like a job for the FTC, requiring disclosure of all the manufacturers who contributed substantially to the product. Although that could be quite a long label.
#30
Posted 2015-July-23, 11:43
But I'm a pinko liberal. I believe "we will not allow lower levels of government to make the following kinds of regulations" should be protecting people - particularly people currently being discriminated against, societally or legally - not businesses.
I *expect* businesses to protect their business niches, even to the point of trying to regulate out of practicality anything that might compete against it. I expect politicians to think of the voters - and that means resisting those businesses when their protections are damaging to those voters.
I expect to be regularly disappointed in everything but being regularly disappointed.
#31
Posted 2015-July-23, 12:05
mycroft, on 2015-July-23, 11:43, said:
I agree. The problem is that much of the regulation of GMO has been fueled by alarmists. As a result, the labels end up scaring consumers unnecessarily rather than protecting them. It's like putting Jenny McCarthy in charge of the department that regulates vaccines.
#32
Posted 2015-July-24, 09:58
It's more like putting Richard Dawkins (or, going the other way, Tipper Gore) in charge of what's allowed on radio. It might lead to bad client decisions, and may change the landscape of what businesses will be successful, but is it a huge deal?
#33
Posted 2015-July-24, 16:28
You'd think that the insurance industry would have been eager to counter them, since treating cancer costs them so much. But I suspect they felt that they couldn't fight Big Tobacco. So instead they just factored the costs into their premiums, perhaps even charging higher premiums to smokers.
#34
Posted 2015-July-24, 20:06
Profit is an efficient motivator while losses are the best eliminator (except where government can be induced to provide subsidies... or regulations against competition).
Democracy at its best, protects the rights of the individual from the excesses of the masses.
At its worst, it is a lumbering, careless and wayward means of directing the masses out of the wilderness (frying pans and fires come to mind here)
#35
Posted 2015-July-31, 15:01
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#36
Posted 2015-July-31, 15:16
blackshoe, on 2015-July-31, 15:01, said:
But he wasn't talking about GW?
#37
Posted 2015-August-05, 12:40
So it looks like this may go the same way as "Organic" labels -- rather than force the Mark of Cain on the "bad" products, we allow producers to put a label on their supposedly "better" products.
http://www.marketpla...ways-gmo-labels
#38
Posted 2015-August-06, 10:11
It may easily go the way as "organic" - which means absolutely nothing, and if it turns out that "non-GMO" labelled things sell, an unregulated mark will be abused by people who can come up with a reason why they're "non-GMO - well, *we* didn't do any modifying".
The only "voluntary marks" that seem to be difficult to assault are the ones with religious backing (Halal, Pareve, Kosher). I wonder why? [Note: I don't really wonder why.]
#39
Posted 2015-August-06, 20:09
mycroft, on 2015-August-06, 10:11, said:
Are you ever going to give up on that pedantic definition? GMO refers to genetic engineering, not natural evolution of the genome through selective breeding. The meaning of a jargon phrase is not just the literal meaning of the words.
I'm pretty sure HR 1599 doesn't use the term GMO, I think it refers to foods that result from genetic engineering. But even if it did, there would probably be a definition section that says what counts.
#40
Posted 2015-August-06, 20:56
At the very least this is discrimination, this is not equality
IN fact it sounds like crony capitalism thus my objection.