[benlessard]

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If you dont like 3♣

Assume the bidding went

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You play a style where 3C show extras and shape (55 or 64 with a good 4 card suit) and 2H is just a catch all bid.

You have no special agreement for 3S.

What your bid over 3S and why ?

[FrancesHinden]

On the first one, an obvious 4H. So far I've shown a 6-card suit.
On the second, I'd have bid 4C over 3D (unless you think that is a cue for diamonds)

[MrAce]

1-4♥. (I could have bid 4♥ over 3♦ previous round after showing extras via 3♣, but perhaps jumping to 4♥ over 3♦ should be used for same hands but no spade control such as xx AKxxxxx void AKxx)

2-Agree with Frances.

[schelet]

benlessard, on 2015-June-27, 00:06, said:

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If you dont like 2♣

Assume the bidding went

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You play a style where 3C show extras and shape (55 or 64 with a good 4 card suit) and 2H is just a catch all bid.

You have no special agreement for 3S.

What your bid over 3S and why ?

I would disagree with both bidding sequences - in my opinion I would bid 1 H - 2 D (answer) and from this point on it would be useless to announce my clubs as well, as it would be pretty unlikely to play 6 or 7 clubs or even 3 NT (due to difficulties in reaching both hands to benefit out of long colours). My p answered 2 over 1, which means he / she has 11 - 14 hcp with diamonds as a bidding colour. This shows that we are not in the range of a slam. My interest is in finding out two important pieces of information : how many aces has my p and how many hearts. Therefore I have to make a decision :
a. to test a slam whatsoever by bidding 4 clubs (if I play this convention with my p) or 4NT (from where there is no return). Depending on answer, I could stop in 4 or 5 hearts, or go for 6.
b. bid 3 hearts instead of 2, showing an unusual lenght of colour and "other strenghts". The risk is to play just 4 hearts when it might be more. My p should pick up initiative from this point and go for slam or stop in 4 hearts.
c. bid directly 4 hearts, expecting my p to go on with question of aces if the case (very unlikely to happen)
d. bid 4 clubs as an overcall expecting my p to interpretate it as an aces question
e. bid 3 nt and expecting the worse (I would not use this bid in any case)
f. bid 2 NT and asking my p's second biddable colour (if any). After the answer of 3 spades, I have also options a and c described above
It's more like a poker hand with no foreseeable final contract, except for the "easy" 4 hearts.
Imagine that with Aces of diamonds and spades combined with 2 small hearts (not mentioning a Q as singleton)in my p's hand, a slam is guaranteed, even if it will be probably bid only by partners using different types of initial biddings.

[PhilKing]

I just don't see the problem.

Bidding 4♥ in sequence 1 looks like an excellent description of our hand - extra values, very long hearts, secondary clubs.

[gszes]

4s for me

It is impossible for me to have 4 spades and it is not reasonable for p to be searching for a 43 spade fit (they cannot have 5 spades). I cannot have dia support and spade shortness (no 3s over 2d). this has little to no choice but to further emphasize the distribution of my hand and show my short spade. My hand also cannot be 1624 since I had a simple 4d bid over 3s.

If p is worried about 3n my hand has gotten a ton better and a simple 4h bid might be xxx AKQxxx void AQJx. 0625 4c seems like a better description so all in all 4s really should look pretty much like the given hand.

[benlessard]

I forgot to put that 2D was GF.

I dont exactly know whats the best continuation but I know 4H is just wrong.

Maybe 3S was an advance cue (like the ♠A + xx/Q in H) but its most likely hes got Qxx or worse in spades and a stiff heart.

Since we have AK of clubs partner is very likely to have solid diamonds.

Even AKQJxx with H 4-1 and D 4-2 is good enough for 6D. But I really think he often going to have 7D here. If you bid 4H the auction will often die there because partner will be afraid of 2 quick S losers and probably a trumps elsewhere.

I like raising to 4D (even if its RKC) 5D will rarely go down and ill be well placed to find 6D. Yes I would prefer to have a stiff ♦Q/J but here the rich control is more than adequate compensation. If 4D is just natural than partner can still return to 4H with a stiff H and not so great D but its not really possible that his D are not great especially if the bidding is 1H-2D-2H-3D.

[MrAce]

I do not think 2♦ being GF changes my mind.

[alok c]

4S in first auction.
4H in second auction.

[Cyberyeti]

benlessard, on 2015-June-29, 09:26, said:

I forgot to put that 2D was GF.

I dont exactly know whats the best continuation but I know 4H is just wrong.

Maybe 3S was an advance cue (like the ♠A + xx/Q in H) but its most likely hes got Qxx or worse in spades and a stiff heart.

Since we have AK of clubs partner is very likely to have solid diamonds.

Even AKQJxx with H 4-1 and D 4-2 is good enough for 6D. But I really think he often going to have 7D here. If you bid 4H the auction will often die there because partner will be afraid of 2 quick S losers and probably a trumps elsewhere.

I like raising to 4D (even if its RKC) 5D will rarely go down and ill be well placed to find 6D. Yes I would prefer to have a stiff ♦Q/J but here the rich control is more than adequate compensation. If 4D is just natural than partner can still return to 4H with a stiff H and not so great D but its not really possible that his D are not great especially if the bidding is 1H-2D-2H-3D.

You also didn't put what 1♥-3♦ would have been. And your analysis is wrong I think, a club lead will mean you lack the entries to deal with hearts 4-1 in the AKQJxx case if partner is say 3163 and if the singleton heart is behind declarer, you also have issues of a possible trump promotion on a start of 2 rounds of spades.

If 2♥ is a catch all, the diamonds don't need to be as good to rebid as if it shows 6 (although your controls and the lack of a 3N bid mean they are likely to be), they certainly don't have to be in any way solid, what are you going to bid with Qxx, x, AKJ10xxx, Qx ?

As a non 2/1 player, so take my opinion with a large pinch of salt, I'd treat the 3♠ bids as very different in the 2 sequences, in the first where it's the 4th suit, I think it's a "where are we going, I don't have a spade stop" bid, in the second to me it would be an "I've got a spade card, and I know I can find out where we're going, have you got a club card".

[benlessard]

Quote

As a non 2/1 player, so take my opinion with a large pinch of salt, I'd treat the 3♠ bids as very different in the 2 sequences, in the first where it's the 4th suit, I think it's a "where are we going, I don't have a spade stop" bid, in the second to me it would be an "I've got a spade card, and I know I can find out where we're going, have you got a club card".

Yes the 2nd auctions are very different and its one of the reason why I put the two auctions in the first place as a trap. I didnt mention that my comments was about the first auction because i tought it was obvious that its the lack of spades values facing a simgleton that allow you to visualize slam.

I knew about the 4-1 behind but slam is still decent. The stiff can be in front of declarer or declarer could have an ♦8. If the stiff in behind he will probably lead it vs wich you should probably ruff the 2nd round high and hope D break.

Quote

Qxx, x, AKJ10xxx, Qx

5D is quite safe with this hand in fact 5D is a better contract than 4H. Maybe i exagerated a little bid with "very likely to have solid diamonds" but its at least likely. Its quite clear for me that the risk of missing slam by bidding 4H is at least double of the risk that 4D backfire. If you bid 4H partner looking at Qxx or worse in spades will never keep bidding.

[cherdano]

benlessard, on 2015-June-29, 09:26, said:

I forgot to put that 2D was GF.

I dont exactly know whats the best continuation but I know 4H is just wrong.

Maybe 3S was an advance cue (like the ♠A + xx/Q in H) but its most likely hes got Qxx or worse in spades and a stiff heart.

Since we have AK of clubs partner is very likely to have solid diamonds.

Why on earth is that? Make his hand Qxx x AKxxxxx Jx and you'd get a majority vote on BBF for 2♦, then 3♦. Does 3♠ suddenly make the diamonds solid?
If you don't think that's enough for 2♦, it's easy to make the hand stronger without making the diamonds solid! And of course, he might have "solid" diamonds in the sense of having ♦AKQxxx. xxx x AKQxxx Qxx.

Don't forget that solid diamonds are much less likely than non-solid diamonds a priori, so his bidding would have to be extremely unlikely with non-solid diamonds for your claim to be right.

[benlessard]

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Qxx x AKxxxxx Jx

I tend to open more soundly than most experts and I wouldnt GF with this. IMO bidding 2D gf is a misevaluation of the hand because too often you wont be able to run your diamonds. Its the perfect hand to bid 1H-3D inv (if you play 1NT semi forcing) or to bid 1NT forcing followed by the impossible 2S to show a good 3m bid. If you play 2/1 GF except if suit is repeated (what i prefer) its a clear 1H-2D-2H-3D non forcing hand. Also depending if 3S can be an advance cuebid or not 4D could be corrected to 4H to show a singleton H and so-so diamonds. I know many play that a return to 4M in partner suit is never forcing (I dont) and this would be a good hand for this method. Also note that this hand is cherry picked with QJx of spades you would likely bid 3NT with Qx(x) or better in clubs 5D would be ok. Even the J of D make 5D a pretty solid contract (less than 4H but not by a lot). AKQxxxx,AKQJxx or better is just a much more likely scenario than this near specific hand. Everytime responder got less than Qxx in spades 6D rate to be a great contract.