[lmilne]

After we agree a trump suit and use RKC, sometimes we want to bid a suit at the 6-level to play, or at least as an offer to play.

An example might be something like 1♣-1♠; 2♠-2NT* (art. GF ask); 3♥-3♠; 4♣*-4NT; 5♥-6♣. If opener has shown 3415 shape, responder may well prefer to play in clubs, especially with weak trumps. Other situations include picking a 4-4 fit over a 5-3 fit and using the 5-card suit for discards.

However, using 6-level bids as asking bids in that suit, e.g. asking for third round control, can be very useful when looking for a grand slam.

What are some good rules to avoid disasters in this area? When should 6x be natural, and when should it be an asking bid?

[Lovera]

lmilne, on 2015-June-05, 23:50, said:

After we agree a trump suit and use RKC, sometimes we want to bid a suit at the 6-level to play, or at least as an offer to play.

An example might be something like 1♣-1♠; 2♠-2NT* (art. GF ask); 3♥-3♠; 4♣*-4NT; 5♥-6♣. If opener has shown 3415 shape, responder may well prefer to play in clubs, especially with weak trumps. Other situations include picking a 4-4 fit over a 5-3 fit and using the 5-card suit for discards.

However, using 6-level bids as asking bids in that suit, e.g. asking for third round control, can be very useful when looking for a grand slam.

What are some good rules to avoid disasters in this area? When should 6x be natural, and when should it be an asking bid?

In this bidding both players set spade as trump than 4NT is RKCB(s) but if responder prefer club as trump because not has used 4♦ as kickback for club suit ?(Lovera)

[PhilKing]

I think you should have a default rule that 6♣ in this kind of auction is to play (or at least offering choice).

Usually you have another option to look for grand, although you may need to be a little creative. In this instance, you could bid 6♦ - since partner has show a singleton diamond, you can't be asking about that suit, so partner can work out that you need the ♣Q for grand.

[Lovera]

May i suggest to show this hand with a diagram and bidding so that could be easier talking about it ?

[gnasher]

I like the simple rule that if either player has shown length in the suit, and it could be a playable spot, it's a suggestion to play. In this auction that means 6C and 6H are natural.

[Lovera]

When partner bids 6♣ asking for Q otherwise with 5NT have had information about K♣ starting cue bids in RKCB. If there is not Q in query suit the answer is 6 of agree trump. This information is on regard about specific quality on a suit that is in interest such as 6♥(=? Q) bypassing 5NT.

[masonbarge]

lmilne, on 2015-June-05, 23:50, said:

After we agree a trump suit and use RKC, sometimes we want to bid a suit at the 6-level to play, or at least as an offer to play.

An example might be something like 1♣-1♠; 2♠-2NT* (art. GF ask); 3♥-3♠; 4♣*-4NT; 5♥-6♣. If opener has shown 3415 shape, responder may well prefer to play in clubs, especially with weak trumps. Other situations include picking a 4-4 fit over a 5-3 fit and using the 5-card suit for discards.

However, using 6-level bids as asking bids in that suit, e.g. asking for third round control, can be very useful when looking for a grand slam.

What are some good rules to avoid disasters in this area? When should 6x be natural, and when should it be an asking bid?

There is only one good rule as far as I am concerned, and that is Hamman's Law. Decide the strain first and then the level. If you haven't found your suit yet, don't start a slam sequence. The only exception I play is that the appropriate person might decide to play in 6/7 NT, either for matchpoints or to get a lead up to a tenace.

There is nothing more miserable than making a big at the 5 or 6 level that your partner is not absolutely sure what it means. Or at least "reasonably" sure, to the degree that he at least knows whether or not you are proposing to play the final contract in that suit!

[nige1]

lmilne, on 2015-June-05, 23:50, said:

After we agree a trump suit and use RKC, sometimes we want to bid a suit at the 6-level to play, or at least as an offer to play.An example might be something like 1♣-1♠; 2♠-2NT* (art. GF ask); 3♥-3♠; 4♣*-4NT; 5♥-6♣. If opener has shown 3415 shape, responder may well prefer to play in clubs, especially with weak trumps. Other situations include picking a 4-4 fit over a 5-3 fit and using the 5-card suit for discards.However, using 6-level bids as asking bids in that suit, e.g. asking for third round control, can be very useful when looking for a grand slam.What are some good rules to avoid disasters in this area? When should 6x be natural, and when should it be an asking bid?

A 6-bid might suggest an alternative resting place

• Never, after agreeing another suit (MasonBarge - a minority view?)
• If there exist other less ambiguous but equally effective tries (PhilKing).
• If you've already shown length in the suit (Gnasher).
• If It's a jump. i.e. It's never exclusion or whatever.
• Unless your auction has established 4-card or better support. Roughly: if a new suit possibly could be a suggestion to play then it is. It is more important to reach the right small-slam than to strive for hard-to-bid grands. This rule has the advantage of generality and simplicity (Charles Outred).

[FrancesHinden]

It depends a bit on methods and general agreements.

I generally cannot offer an alternative suit unless it is a jump or unless it's not clear what suit has been agreed to start with. Or possibly in some circumstances if the response to blackwood (or the ace ask call) is doubled and this is passed back to asker who might have a rethink about who should be declarer.

Take your sample auction as an example. I don't play exactly these methods, but if I was interested in playing in clubs I would bid (i) 3C over 2S (if forcing), or (ii) 4C over 2S, or as a minimum 4C over 3H which should be natural (particularly if opener may have been short in clubs when he opened). I think 3S set spades as trumps.

There are however plenty of auctions where I haven't asked for aces and can still offer an alternative strain, but that is usually by jumping to it (or some auctions the suit may be ambiguous).

[zillahandp]

Francis is right end.

[PhilKing]

zillahandp, on 2015-June-07, 14:44, said:

Francis is right end.

Yes, because you could never have a situation such as:

1C 1H
4D 4NT
5H ?

Where you want to play in 6♣...

♠Kxxx(x)
♥Q
♦xxx
♣Axxx(x)

pard has:

♠Axxx
♥AKx
♦x
♣KQJxx

One doesn't always have the luxury of a 3-level relay followed by some double RKCB extravaganza. My view is that being allowed to switch suits after RKCB is WAY more useful than losing one of your grand slam tries.

[FrancesHinden]

Methods aside, your putative 5134 opposite 4315 seems to need spades 2-2 anyway, so you might as well play in them
And is the 4135 opposite a 4315 more or less likely than Kxxxx x Axx Axxx opposite AQxx AKx x Kxxxx ?

[karlson]

I used to very much follow the Frances approach, but have switched to the gnasher/philking approach at some point in the last few years. It's just really embarrassing not to be able to bid what you know is the right contract after keycard. Maneuvering the auction towards playing in the other suit earlier can work, but in my experience leads to generally more awkward auctions and sometimes forces you to bypass keycard entirely if the timing is off. Not to mention that sometimes you didn't know you wanted to play in the other suit until after the keycard response.

[PhilKing]

FrancesHinden, on 2015-June-07, 16:02, said:

Methods aside, your putative 5134 opposite 4315 seems to need spades 2-2 anyway, so you might as well play in them
And is the 4135 opposite a 4315 more or less likely than Kxxxx x Axx Axxx opposite AQxx AKx x Kxxxx ?

Yep, true.

But on the second, I bid 6♦ over 5♥ as previously mentioned.

[cherdano]

Another example would be
Qxxx Ax xxx Axxx
in the same auction (hoping for AKxx KQx x KQxxx where we don't need spades 3-2 playing in clubs).

I am with Phil, Andy, Victor on this one - not being able to suggest a strain we have bid naturally is a bigger loss than losing one of a number of grand slam tries.

[Lovera]

For lmilne: (However, using 6-level bids as asking bids in that suit, e.g. asking for third round control, can be very useful when looking for a grand slam.). I don't know if it is an your idea or you have seen this in any my post: for third round control we are talking about Queen and doubleton(=xx) how for second round are King and singleton(=x) and these latter distributional factors (xx, x) should be also considered in RKCB (relatives) answers. About it we are agree, bye.

[steve2005]

masonbarge, on 2015-June-07, 12:37, said:

There is only one good rule as far as I am concerned, and that is Hamman's Law. Decide the strain first and then the level. If you haven't found your suit yet, don't start a slam sequence. The only exception I play is that the appropriate person might decide to play in 6/7 NT, either for matchpoints or to get a lead up to a tenace.

While a nice rule has exceptions. I remember a hand where we had agreed ♠ and partner had bid 5N showing all KC and looking for 7. I bid 7♣ not a new suit) because it looked like a very good grand slam while 7♠ would have been iffy. I had undisclosed extra club length.

[Jinksy]

PhilKing, on 2015-June-06, 10:19, said:

I think you should have a default rule that 6♣ in this kind of auction is to play (or at least offering choice).

Usually you have another option to look for grand, although you may need to be a little creative. In this instance, you could bid 6♦ - since partner has show a singleton diamond, you can't be asking about that suit, so partner can work out that you need the ♣Q for grand.

I like the idea of this, but what do you do when P *hasn't* shown shortage and you want to hunt for grand? Do you just make up a cue?

The trouble I find with losing grand-slam tries where you want eg the Q opposite your AKJx is that often(/usually?) when one of you has a good source of tricks in a side suit, they've shown that suit in the auction. Maybe I'm answering my own question, and if you've shown 2 suits in the auction you can cue in a third to similar effect. That still leaves the question of what to do if P's the one who's shown side suits, though, or trickier still, if you both have.

[Lovera]

Infact, as Jinksy has told, the other case (see my post #6 too) are positive answeres : if in query suit there is Q plus a Q aside is indicated suit aside (i.e. 6♣(=? for Q)-6♥ with also Q in heart suit) or 6NT with Queen alone.

[Lovera]

I also talk about in "How not to get to 7" in Interesting Bridge Hands.