[lycier]

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As we know that Gib jump 3♣ is a bar bid,which usually show 4-6 distributions in ♠ and ♣ with weak hand.
For this hand,3♣ just with 10hcp as a bar bid is too strong.
It should be a invitational hand in effect.

[cloa513]

lycier, on 2015-March-06, 06:38, said:

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As we know that Gib jump 3♣ is a bar bid,which usually show 4-6 distributions in ♠ and ♣ with weak hand.
For this hand,3♣ just with 10hcp as a bar bid is too strong.
It should be a invitational hand in effect.

So you think versus 12-14, you think 10 is worth an invite to a 24HCP 3NT.

[1eyedjack]

I agree with OP. This looks better than most flat 11 counts. Agree it is borderline. But either way, passing 1N would be better than signing out in 3C.

[iandayre]

lycier, on 2015-March-06, 06:38, said:

---

As we know that Gib jump 3♣ is a bar bid,which usually show 4-6 distributions in ♠ and ♣ with weak hand.
For this hand,3♣ just with 10hcp as a bar bid is too strong.
It should be a invitational hand in effect.

Clearly, 3C is the worst possible choice. I am fine with it passing 1NT, but at least 2NT would make some sense.

[johnu]

3♣ on a 4=2=2=5 hand with king empty 5th of clubs? Really GIB?

[georgi]

Included for polishing in v34.

It has holes with that 5m4M shapes which are described as 6-11TP where the 11 could be also 11HCP with bad values in shortness.

[Stephen Tu]

Please, please change definition to SIXm4M shapes. This should never be 5 cd m IMO. And 10-TP or something like that.

[1eyedjack]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-March-30, 18:22, said:

Please, please change definition to SIXm4M shapes. This should never be 5 cd m IMO. And 10-TP or something like that.

Do you feel the same way if the minor is Diamonds, by the way?

[Stephen Tu]

1eyedjack, on 2015-March-31, 07:14, said:

Do you feel the same way if the minor is Diamonds, by the way?

When partner opens clubs? Yes I feel the same. Although it wouldn't matter for GIB since it doesn't use the Walsh "bypass diamonds" treatment. But it would matter for humans who might have bypassed diamonds not knowing GIB doesn't.

My real preference is for GIB not to play such "bar bids" at all, using them for natural forcing 5-5 or something like that. But if it does play them I'd rather they not bid it on 4-5s, which to me lands in far too many ridiculous 5-2 contracts at the 3 level when 7 tricks in NT is much easier.

[1eyedjack]

GIB will never open 1C on a doubleton. Maybe it should, but as it plays you will not end in a 5-2 fit (unless you have psyched as opener of course).

But no, I meant after a 1D opener, which in theory can be on 3 but in practice much less likely, so a bar raise on a 5 card suit has a bit more going for it statistically.

It may still be right to insist on 6.

[Stephen Tu]

1eyedjack, on 2015-March-31, 12:26, said:

GIB will never open 1C on a doubleton. Maybe it should, but as it plays you will not end in a 5-2 fit (unless you have psyched as opener of course).

But no, I meant after a 1D opener, which in theory can be on 3 but in practice much less likely, so a bar raise on a 5 card suit has a bit more going for it statistically.

It may still be right to insist on 6.

The "bar bid" definition applies when you are bidding the *unbid* minor at the 3 level.

Raising partner's original minor is a completely different animal, because you also have the option of simply bidding TWO of partner's minor. Because GIB plays "NMF" and not some two-way scheme, or 2♣ always checkback. So arguably if you just want to sign off, you can simply try to buy it lower. And 3m should be invitational (if going through NMF would be forcing).

I don't really think it's best to have 2 different signoffs in partner's minor, and lose one of the forcing/inv raise meanings.

[1eyedjack]

Agreed. Brain fart.