BBO Discussion Forums: Artificial call - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Artificial call definition

#41 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2015-January-19, 13:30

View Postbarmar, on 2015-January-19, 10:25, said:

I think he was suggesting that we tend to discuss them differently because we call them "laws" rather than "rules". If I open the box of a board game, there will usually be a few sheets of paper called "Rules of the game" that explain how to play it. Replacing the word with "Laws" seems to suggest more rigidity.

Yes. Although I'm not sure "rigidity" is the right word. I can't think of a better one, though.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#42 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2015-January-19, 14:34

View Postbarmar, on 2015-January-19, 10:25, said:

I think he was suggesting that we tend to discuss them differently because we call them "laws" rather than "rules". If I open the box of a board game, there will usually be a few sheets of paper called "Rules of the game" that explain how to play it. Replacing the word with "Laws" seems to suggest more rigidity.

I think it also means that the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge should be treated in the same manner as laws enacted by governmental bodies are treated (whether they are referred to as "ordinances," "statutes" or "laws"), and the same rules of statutory interpretaion used to interpret laws enacted by governmental bodies should be applied to interpreting the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge.

Quite frankly, there really is no difference between "rules" for a board game and "laws" for duplicate contract bridge. Both the "rules" and the "laws" are intended to be followed without deviation. The fact that players of a board game might choose to relax the application of some of the rules of the board game doesn't mean that it is "right" to do so (insofar as "right" means the way the board game was intended to be played by the person who created it).
0

#43 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2015-January-19, 18:04

View PostArtK78, on 2015-January-19, 14:34, said:

I think it also means that the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge should be treated in the same manner as laws enacted by governmental bodies are treated (whether they are referred to as "ordinances," "statutes" or "laws"), and the same rules of statutory interpretaion used to interpret laws enacted by governmental bodies should be applied to interpreting the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge.

So only graduates of an accredited law school can be tournament directors? ;)
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#44 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2015-January-19, 21:35

View Postblackshoe, on 2015-January-19, 18:04, said:

So only graduates of an accredited law school can be tournament directors? ;)

No, that would ruin Bridge in the same way lawyers have ruined law. I recommend only those who can read, write, interpret, and maintain objectivity be TD's. Then, having been a TD should be a requirement to enter law school. I am willing to let Andy be the one who decides which people qualify.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#45 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,571
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-January-20, 11:19

View Postblackshoe, on 2015-January-19, 13:30, said:

Yes. Although I'm not sure "rigidity" is the right word. I can't think of a better one, though.

I struggled with the word when I was writing it, too.

#46 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2015-January-21, 01:39

View Postpran, on 2015-January-18, 17:54, said:

In case you didn't know: We have a WBFLC minute to that effect.

Yes, that's exactly my point. If you allow the WBFLC minutes to override the actual wording of the Laws, you are no longer applying the laws as written.

Quote

And in case you are just playing devil's advocate a bit (Ed's suggestion) I really think you are overdoing it.

I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm merely pointing out what bridge administrators actually do, whether they recognise it or not.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#47 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,571
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-January-21, 15:59

View Postgnasher, on 2015-January-21, 01:39, said:

Yes, that's exactly my point. If you allow the WBFLC minutes to override the actual wording of the Laws, you are no longer applying the laws as written.

The minutes are implicitly included in the Laws, just as an RA's regulations are included by reference. So "as written" includes them.

#48 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,686
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2015-January-21, 20:20

What is it that implies the minutes are included in the laws?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#49 User is offline   RMB1 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Joined: 2007-January-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Exeter, UK
  • Interests:EBU/EBL TD
    Bridge, Cinema, Theatre, Food,
    [Walking - not so much]

Posted 2015-January-22, 01:24

View Postbarmar, on 2015-January-21, 15:59, said:

The minutes are implicitly included in the Laws, ...


If the WBFLC minutes are included in the Laws why is it necessary for those minutes to include explicitly adding a footnote to the laws (for example, the footnote to Law 25A)? If the minutes are implicit included, explicitly adding a footnote would be unnecessary.
Robin

"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
0

#50 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2015-January-22, 02:17

View PostRMB1, on 2015-January-22, 01:24, said:

If the WBFLC minutes are included in the Laws why is it necessary for those minutes to include explicitly adding a footnote to the laws (for example, the footnote to Law 25A)? If the minutes are implicit included, explicitly adding a footnote would be unnecessary.

A WBFL Minute is (usually) a clarification of something in the laws, and so was the minute that simply added a footnote in Law 25.

WBFLC minutes, once issued, have the force of Law.
0

#51 User is offline   PeterAlan 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 616
  • Joined: 2010-May-03
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-January-23, 06:08

View PostArtK78, on 2015-January-19, 14:34, said:

I think it also means that the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge should be treated in the same manner as laws enacted by governmental bodies are treated (whether they are referred to as "ordinances," "statutes" or "laws"), and the same rules of statutory interpretaion used to interpret laws enacted by governmental bodies should be applied to interpreting the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge.

You're suggesting that the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge vary from country to country if those countries' "rules of statutory interpretation" differ?
0

#52 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2015-January-23, 09:38

View PostPeterAlan, on 2015-January-23, 06:08, said:

You're suggesting that the Laws of Duplicate Contract Bridge vary from country to country if those countries' "rules of statutory interpretation" differ?

Rules of statutory interpretation is a universal concept, not a law. The rules do not vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Laws vary from country to country, not the manner in which the laws are interpreted. (That is not to say that the manner in which the laws are applied doesn't vary from country to country - but that is another issue)

It is like saying that 2 + 2 varies from country to country. (Of course, there is a saying that the correct answer for an accountant when a potential client asks him "What is 2 + 2?" is "What do you want it to be?)
0

#53 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,571
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-January-23, 11:51

View PostArtK78, on 2015-January-23, 09:38, said:

It is like saying that 2 + 2 varies from country to country. (Of course, there is a saying that the correct answer for an accountant when a potential client asks him "What is 2 + 2?" is "What do you want it to be?)

There was the Indiana Pi Bill. Had it passed, it would have established a value for pi different from mathematical truth.
  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

5 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users