[aguahombre]

 fourdad, on 2014-December-16, 06:33, said:

First error rules!!!
Simple question..........what bid more accurately describes North's hand to Partner?? 1D or 2D??

Simple answer: 1D doesn't accurately describe North's hand, yet. But, 2D is supposed to be immediately descriptive and isn't even close to accomplishing that. Partner will never imagine or look for 4-card spade support and prime controls in both rounded suits.

[rhm]

 mcphee, on 2014-December-16, 03:56, said:

To be honest I do not consider the N hand worth opening, but lets take the view this is ok... (snip)....
I certainly would not pass 4H as S whose only blame is he thought partner opened the bidding and showed S because he had something.

As usual the whole discussion looks lopsided to me, full of hypocrisy.
Whether North has an opening bid or not can be debated forever and is a matter of agreements between North and South.
Whether you like it or not, such hands are nowadays frequently opened in top level play. At the top almost nobody requires any more two quick tricks to open the bidding.

What I do not understand is what it has to do with the final result.
Sure, if North would have been stronger 4♥ would have gone down, but then game or slam would have been on for North - South.
Would that have been less of a disaster if 4♥ goes down a trick when you can make 6♣?

Why has South to double in second position?
South has forced to game. One advantage of this approach is that PASS by South must be unconditionally forcing even for me and I play Pass rarely as forcing.
East-West are vulnerable and obviously believe they are at least close enough for game. South knows from the bidding East/West must have a huge fit in hearts.
What surprises does South have? He has neither trump length nor tricks in trumps, nor does it look likely that he can ruff anything on defense. He has aces outside (nice), but East/West know they are missing those aces.
If South passes and leaves the decision to North, North would have bid 5♣, very likely undoubled.
It turns out 5♣ is a cheap save against 4♥. In fact double dummy it can be made against any lead and defense and 6♣(!) is beaten only by an unlikely spade lead.
No, double dummy does not mean playing for singleton ♦ aces, sound declarer play is sufficient.
Whether North/South would find that "save" if North initially passes is anyones guess.

I tend to blame South at least as much as North. His DBL was the worst bid in the auction, but guess what: This bid gets plenty of approval on this forum.

Rainer Herrmann

[broze]

Just to answer a few questions about the methods:

Yes, S could still have 4 spades. After 1D-2C uncontested 2S by North would show an unbalanced hand with 5D, 4S and would not promise extras. I can't see why N shouldn't bid 2S here as well. I would much prefer to face the problem North faced having bid 2S rather than having not bid it.

Yes, South had available 3♣ to show 10-12 pts invitational at his first turn to call.

NS open on the lighter side and North's opening bid is not a deviation from that. 2D is impossible of course.

Thanks for comments so far.

[aguahombre]

 broze, on 2014-December-16, 07:46, said:

Yes, South had available 3♣ to show 10-12 pts invitational at his first turn to call.

And, yet he chose not to do that. ATB is resulting by definition. South made a decision to create a nebulous game force instead of using an available tool. The result was the wrong person having control of the auction rather than describing his hand to let partner make the subsequent mistakes. Whether that choice was a good one in theory or not, it was the cause of the result.

[PhilKing]

South's double of 4♥ looks right to me - the hand looks to be well into the bottom 20% in terms of suitability for bidding on, and that is what double suggests. In simple terms he expects to beat them most of the time but not to make game unless partner has an obvious pull of the double.

Just looking at the auction and not the hand, I would guess that an optimum spread would be for South to bid on about 30% of the time, make a forcing pass 50% (sometimes planning to pass and pull) and double 20%.

North's pass is just not bridge as far as I am concerned.

[Phil]

We all open North's hand and GF with South's. Harmless fun.

And LOL at those that suggest North shouldn't bid 2♠.

When our vul opponents jump to 4♥ it's time to get serious. While South is minimum and a questionable ♥K, I don't think he should be making the final call. While double isn't a command to pass it states we are a defensive minimum and he doesn't have a clear idea. North should only be pulling with a fit.

A little unlucky as well. East has an obvious overcall.

[Trinidad]

 PhilKing, on 2014-December-16, 07:59, said:

South's double of 4♥ looks right to me - the hand looks to be well into the bottom 20% in terms of suitability for bidding on, and that is what double suggests. In simple terms he expects to beat them most of the time but not to make game unless partner has an obvious pull of the double.

Just looking at the auction and not the hand, I would guess that an optimum spread would be for South to bid on about 30% of the time, make a forcing pass 50% (sometimes planning to pass and pull) and double 20%.

North's pass is just not bridge as far as I am concerned.

I couldn't disagree more. South's double is awful. Do you realize what kind of hands South could have before his double? He could have a good 3334 hand (and, if we take the OP's explanation of the auction literally, even a 3433 hand) which would be well suited for defense. South has never shown his six card club suit, not even 5 of them and possibly not even 4. An other hand type that South could well hold is a 3415. When North looks at his hand that is perfectly possible.

When South doubles he says he has a defensive hand in the context of his bidding, so far. That must mean he has the balanced hand or a four card heart suit (of which he has neither) because those are the defensive hands in context. It actively denies a hand with a long club suit and a doubleton, finessable ♥K (that he does have), since - in the context of what South could have - that is not remotely close to a defensive hand.

Rik

[PhilKing]

 Trinidad, on 2014-December-16, 10:03, said:

I couldn't disagree more. South's double is awful. Do you realize what kind of hands South could have before his double? He could have a good 3334 hand (and, if we take the OP's explanation of the auction literally, even a 3433 hand) which would be well suited for defense. South has never shown his six card club suit, not even 5 of them and possibly not even 4. An other hand type that South could well hold is a 3415. When North looks at his hand that is perfectly possible.

When South doubles he says he has a defensive hand in the context of his bidding, so far. That must mean he has the balanced hand or a four card heart suit (of which he has neither) because those are the defensive hands in context. It actively denies a hand with a long club suit and a doubleton, finessable ♥K (that he does have), since - in the context of what South could have - that is not remotely close to a defensive hand.

Rik

If one wants to play double as 100% penalties, that's fine. But in my world, partner will a) never leave the double in with a void and b) will actually have an opening bid.

[Trinidad]

 PhilKing, on 2014-December-16, 11:24, said:

If one wants to play double as 100% penalties, that's fine. But in my world, partner will a) never leave the double in with a void and b) will actually have an opening bid.

Penalties or not has very little to do with it. Ignoring the possibility that South could have clubs + hearts, South can have 2 possible hand types, according to the OP:

• A GF balanced hand
  
• A GF hand with genuine clubs

South simply needs to tell North which one of the two he holds. If South tells North that he has a defensive hand, North will interpret that as the balanced type. That is the wrong description of South's hand.

Rik

[Jinksy]

We're a little high for mandatory patterning out. South needs to make a decision about whether it looks more likely (and by how much) that your game is making or that theirs is going off. With two bullets, the king of their suit, several quick losers and shortage in P's first suit, I think it looks clear.

[rhm]

 Jinksy, on 2014-December-16, 15:21, said:

We're a little high for mandatory patterning out. South needs to make a decision about whether it looks more likely (and by how much) that your game is making or that theirs is going off. With two bullets, the king of their suit, several quick losers and shortage in P's first suit, I think it looks clear.

Was 4H beatable or not?
Did 5♣ have chances or not even though South expected more from North's bidding?
Does not look so clear to me.

Of course if DBL says please take me out, then I can understand DBL.

Rainer Herrmann

[Jinksy]

I've already said, and at least one of the forum's strongest players has corroborated that X is not a command. I cannot imagine a clearer pull than the N hand.

[PhilKing]

 rhm, on 2014-December-16, 16:08, said:

Was 4H beatable or not?
Did 5♣ have chances or not even though South expected more from North's bidding?
Does not look so clear to me.

Of course if DBL says please take me out, then I can understand DBL.

Rainer Herrmann

Nobody suggested double says "please take me out". The doublers are clear - it says we want to defend. But it is not an out and out penalty double. If you, on the other hand, are suggesting that double says, "please pass if you have a void heart, a 4063 and no defensive tricks", then fine. I am sure that is a brilliant agreement, since we are almost bound to have a 3433 shape, stuffed with heart values, that has chosen to respond with an artificial 2♣.

Sure, I could pass to suggest a GF 2-over-1 with decent clubs, but I no longer have that. I now have just the two bullets, almost zero prospect of game unless partner pulls a double, and an expectation opposite an actual opening bid that they will go down if pard passes a double.

[aguahombre]

 PhilKing, on 2014-December-16, 18:42, said:

Sure, I could pass to suggest a GF 2-over-1 with decent clubs, but I no longer have that.

I think you are describing a situation where you actually had a GF 2/1 with decent clubs to begin with. Perhaps, AXX KX XX AQJXXX. But I still think the nebulous nature of the 2C response over 1D as explained in the OP is not a good idea, and that this thread is a poster boy for why.

[the hog]

 Phil, on 2014-December-16, 09:46, said:

We all open North's hand and GF with South's. Harmless fun.

And LOL at those that suggest North shouldn't bid 2♠.

When our vul opponents jump to 4♥ it's time to get serious. While South is minimum and a questionable ♥K, I don't think he should be making the final call. While double isn't a command to pass it states we are a defensive minimum and he doesn't have a clear idea. North should only be pulling with a fit.

A little unlucky as well. East has an obvious overcall.

No we don't all open. I don't, at least not with 1D.

No we don't all GF with Sth's hand if we have the methods descried as available.

I don't bid 2S as this shows extras for me.

[rhm]

 PhilKing, on 2014-December-16, 18:42, said:

Nobody suggested double says "please take me out". The doublers are clear - it says we want to defend. But it is not an out and out penalty double. If you, on the other hand, are suggesting that double says, "please pass if you have a void heart, a 4063 and no defensive tricks", then fine. I am sure that is a brilliant agreement, since we are almost bound to have a 3433 shape, stuffed with heart values, that has chosen to respond with an artificial 2♣.

Sure, I could pass to suggest a GF 2-over-1 with decent clubs, but I no longer have that. I now have just the two bullets, almost zero prospect of game unless partner pulls a double, and an expectation opposite an actual opening bid that they will go down if pard passes a double.

In case you missed it, my last previous statement you quoted had a bit of my usual sarcasm.

In a forcing pass situation and assuming no special agreements there is a big difference between double in second and fourth position.

I do not share your view how frequently South should Pass, DBL or bid on.
For me if I do not pass in second position when pass would be clearly forcing, means I have a strong opinion whether the partnership should defend or not.
Pass for me essentially means I have doubts what is best and I admit I do have doubts here.
The point is, if South always passes when in doubt, North may have a clear decision. If both have doubts, North's decision will on average be no worse than South.
Even if either South or North each will be in doubt in a majority of cases, it may well be that only in a minority of cases both will be in doubt on the same deal and this ensures that always the one, who has a clear decision to take will be in charge.

It is true that South hand has not been improved by the bidding. It has diminished in value.
Nevertheless I dislike the double.
You believe South should DBL in a game forcing situation if our game chances look dubious.
I believe South should only double if he also believes 4♥ will not make.
It is a fallacy to assume the second one follows from the first. It does not.

East jump to game vulnerable does not sound to me as an advanced sacrifice. It sounds to me that East is expecting to have good chances for a make.

What does South have?
Certainly no surprises.

The ♥K sounds worthless on offense but on the bidding looks worthless on defense too and aces are as useful on defense as on offense.
The fact that East - West is bidding without the ♥K tells you, their fit will be huge and their hands distributional.
In a nutshell South has two defensive tricks, no more and no less and this assumes no voids by East / West.
Assuming no game for our side what guarantees do you have that in this case partner will contribute another two tricks for the defense after this bidding?
What chances do you have beating the contract if the ♥K is in the slot?
If that is the case might partner not double if you pass?

I have never said North is blameless and yes North should overrule South DBL.
But undoubtedly South DBL makes the decision for North much harder, since at least in my view South has voiced a strong opinion and North may conclude South knows more about the deal than he does.
Over South Pass North has no problem. He will bid on.

Rainer Herrmann

[bdegrande]

Most of the blame to N. If you open the hand 1♦, which is fine depending on your bidding style, then you must pass at your second turn to show a minimum. South's double is unfortunate as it tells declarer how to play the trump suit, but with two aces and thr trump king and partner opening the bidding, it feels like letting declarer steal not to double.

[rmnka447]

I can't clearly assign blame because both partners contributed to the result and partly the opponents found a fit with a spectacularly lucky lay of the cards. So, I just wanted to make some comments on the bidding.

I think North's call at the first opportunity to speak is a choice between 1 ♦ and pass. 2 ♦ just doesn't seem right because the hand has the 4 card ♠ suit. If South had something like ♠ AKxx ♥ xxxx ♦ Ax ♣ xxx, 4 ♠ has a play. But over 2 ♦, how many players are going to look for a ♠ fit? I think virtually no one would.

The choice between 1 ♦ and pass will probably be a reflection of your bidding style. If you like to open light, 1 ♦ isn't a bad bid. But if that's your style, than South is pushing a bit by making a game force bid with 12 and a tepid ♣ suit. If 3 ♣ would show an 11-12 with ♣s, that might be a better bid. The other alternative might be 2 NT showing a "balanced" 11-12 and no major. I'd be much more sympathetic to a game force on 12 with something like ♠ Axx ♥ xx ♦ xx ♣ AKJxxx than the actual South hand.

Once North opens such a light hand, I don't think a 2 ♠ bid is warranted. IMO, the very light opener makes it important that North make a call that limits his hand. Pass seems right to me. 2 ♠ forces the hand to the 3 level if South doesn't have a fit, so suggests a much stronger hand. North is under no requirement to bid. South has made a game force bid and will reopen the auction if it's passed to him. So North should normally get another call.

After 2 ♠ followed by 4 ♥, I can appreciate the pressure South feels. But the ♥ Kx doesn't seem to be placed well unless LHO has made a 2 level overcall on ♥ QJxxx(...). That doesn't seem very likely if LHO is a decent player. From South's hand, I don't think the defend or declare decision is clear. OTOH, North has made a 2 ♠ bid. But is that based on a pointy suit player or extras? Who knows! North heard the GF, so passing it back shouldn't result in the contract being undoubled when North has a strong opener. If you don't have a clear cut decision, there's nothing wrong with letting partner help decide. I'd pass the South hand.

Finally, 4 ♥ doubled now puts North under pressure. Yes, North has opened light, but partner has game forced and suggested defending the hand. Do you decide to override partner? You could find partner with something like ♥ K109 in a game going hand where 4 ♥ goes down, but 5 of a minor is off, too. Or, do you pass and find 4 ♥ doubled makes while 5 of a minor has a play or off 1? What a dilemma! With no much defense, an undisclosed fit for partner and a void in the opponent's suit, I think North should bid 5 ♣ rather than sit. If it's wrong it's easier to defend your choice than trying to explain 4 ♥x making.

[gszes]

If this is your system your partnership will have to deal with the
occasional disaster like this one. There is no rational way for the
south hand to proceed after the 1d opener except to bid 2c.

There was no explanation of what x pass 3c 2s mean by north so there
is no rational reason to assume the 2s bid is wrong (if there is no special
meaning assigned I would have bid 3c). Once the bidding mechanism is in place
there appears to be no way to avoid playing 4hx as the final contract. One
cannot blame south for x since they do not wish to proceed higher (especially with
the heart k looking a ton weaker).


Bid these hands w/o interference and see how happy u are with the results. Be willing
to suffer the occasional ridiculous result or tweak the system:)))

[aguahombre]

 gszes, on 2014-December-19, 09:01, said:

There is no rational way for the south hand to proceed after the 1d opener except to bid 2c.

So, either their available tool of a 3C response to show 10-12 HCP with a 6+ Club suit is irrational to you, or you just haven't read the thread.