[Liversidge]

We play Acol, Weak No Trump. I believe that in the sequence 1NT - 3♣ - 3NT - 4NT, opener's partner is showing a strong 6+ Club suit, game pretty certain, possibly a slam, and a hand unsuitable for No Trumps. If so, am I right in thinking that 4NT should be taken as RKCB with Clubs as the implied suit, and is not a quantitative bid in No Trumps?

[helene_t]

I would agree with this.

It is a bit tricky because as a general principle, a raise of a natural notrump bid is quantitative. But it shouldn't apply when we already have a fit. If 3♣ promises a 6-card suit then you have found a fit.

If 3♣ shows 6, what would responder do with 5? Probably start with stayman with 5 clubs and 4 in a major, and with a 5332 he would probably not look for a fit at all but just bid the appropriate number of notrumps, certainly at matchpoints. With 5♣4♦, maybe 3♣ followed by 4♦? Or do you have another way of bidding such a hand?

[Fluffy]

I don't know ACOL, but a principle sound is to reopen 3NT with 4m to tell parter: I wanna play 6 of this suit.

[gordontd]

 Liversidge, on 2014-December-16, 04:18, said:

We play Acol, Weak No Trump. I believe that in the sequence 1NT - 3♣ - 3NT - 4NT, opener's partner is showing a strong 6+ Club suit, game pretty certain, possibly a slam, and a hand unsuitable for No Trumps. If so, am I right in thinking that 4NT should be taken as RKCB with Clubs as the implied suit, and is not a quantitative bid in No Trumps?

No, I play it as quantitative. Partner has already denied a primary fit by rebidding 3NT. If you want to RKCB you can re-bid 4C first.

[aguahombre]

 gordontd, on 2014-December-16, 05:59, said:

No, I play it as quantitative. Partner has already denied a primary fit by rebidding 3NT. If you want to RKCB you can re-bid 4C first.

Or 4C itself could be RKCB (Minorwood), saving a lot of space. If the 3C bid was not perpetrated with a 2nd suit, any suit bid over 3NT could establish Clubs as trumps despite Opener's already shown lack of interest in the suit.

[PhilKing]

 aguahombre, on 2014-December-16, 06:38, said:

Or 4C itself could be RKCB (Minorwood), saving a lot of space. If the 3C bid was not perpetrated with a 2nd suit, any suit bid over 3NT could establish Clubs as trumps despite Opener's already shown lack of interest in the suit.

Were this not the n&b subforum, I would agree 100%!

[aguahombre]

 PhilKing, on 2014-December-16, 07:53, said:

Were this not the n&b subforum, I would agree 100%!

Yeh, I know. However, I have this uncontrollable rant about using 4NT as any form of Ace-ask in a Notrump or Minor suit auction, and thought maybe someone would say, "But, how else can I ask?"

[mikeh]

I think Gordon hit the nail on the head.

Consider this:

As responder we will have two main types of hand on which we want to move beyond 3N, and investigate slam. We have the hand that wants to make a quantitative invite and the hand that wants to ask for keycards.

Using 4N as keycard makes it impossible to make a quantitative advance. However, using 4N as a quantitative advance doesn't make it impossible to be able to use keycard in clubs! It only means that we have to temporize first, with a forcing call somewhere between 3N and 4N, and we have a very easy one available: 4♣

If we bid 4♣ and then 4N, that is keycard.

Now, there is some risk that opener might respond to 4♣ by way of 4N, which makes asking for keycard problematic. However, 4♣ is unconditionally forcing and a very powerful slam try, such that there is NO hand on which opener can refuse to cuebid an Ace, so if opener does rebid 4N, responder can infer no side Aces, which may help.

For those who would prefer to avoid even that ambiguity (after all there will be hands on which responder needs to know about clubs rather than the other Aces, tho these would be few and far between), one can invoke artificiality.

I despise minorwood: I think it awful to intentionally prohibit cuebidding auctions in exchange for the crude weapon of keycard early in an auction (yes, responder could cuebid at the 4 level over 3N, but what if he is looking for a diamond control....these auctions get vey messy very quickly). There are two easy ways around this.

One would be to use kickback: 4♣ is natural and demands cuebids (optional to the partnership if this asks for cues of Aces only), and 4♦ is kickback. The other is to use what is known as 'supergerber': a jump to 5♣ over 3N asks for Aces, and since we have shown a long suit, asks for keycards. I appreciate that this is the N/B forum and I am not suggesting that a N/B play either. I think the N/B player should use 4♣ to set trump, intending to keycard next, and 4N quantitative. But for others, don't use minorwood. If you are skilled enough to remember minorwood, you can surely remember kickback, which gives you both cuebidding and keycard weapons for responder at virtually no cost and at great benefit.

[blackshoe]

The problem with 4NT keycard with a minor agreed is that you may not be able to stop in five of the minor. Particularly when the minor is clubs.

[PhilKing]

FWIW, Minorwood is clearly superior to Kickback (but both are inferior to Turbo), but this is not the place to get in to why.

[mikeh]

 PhilKing, on 2014-December-16, 19:05, said:

FWIW, Minorwood is clearly superior to Kickback (but both are inferior to Turbo), but this is not the place to get in to why.

'clearly' is not an appropriate word in this context, especially when combined with 'superior'. I do agree that turbo, which I haven't played, seems very attractive. Having played both minorwood and kickback with very sound partners, my experience is clearly different from yours:)

[Liversidge]

Thanks for the responses - thought (and headache) provoking.
The question arose after I opened 1NT and my partner had around 11 points with long clubs and a really unbalanced hand. We discussed various options and ruled out the direct 3♣ response, but then moved on to ask how the bidding might have gone if partner had a 17 point hand, 6 good clubs and a void.

We have just about got the hang of Modern Acol, and have progressed from Blackwood through Key Card and on to RKCB, Gerber if Clubs, Quantitative bidding for No Trumps and Cue bidding if worried about a low doubleton. I was hoping that my question would produce an answer directing me to one of these, but now I have Kickback, Minorwood, Super Gerber to think about, and I'd rather not for now - I can imagine my partner's reaction would be (we ARE novices!)

For now I like Gordon's and Miceh's answers, bidding 4NT for Quantitative or 4♣ asking for controls before 4NT as keycard. I think that means that 1NT - 3♣ - 3NT - 4♣ - 4♥ -4NT is Keycard with opener showing first round control in Hearts. It might not cover every situation but I think it is something we could be getting on with.

[NickRW]

 Liversidge, on 2014-December-17, 04:32, said:

For now I like Gordon's and Miceh's answers, bidding 4NT for Quantitative or 4♣ asking for controls before 4NT as keycard. I think that means that 1NT - 3♣ - 3NT - 4♣ - 4♥ -4NT is Keycard with opener showing first round control in Hearts. It might not cover every situation but I think it is something we could be getting on with.

I think that is about right. You get a moderate amount of sophistication at no great cost to the memory that way.

Sometime when you think you're no longer a novice, think about showing 1st or 2nd round controls interchangeably below game. Not now. Just keep that one on the back burner.

 Liversidge, on 2014-December-17, 04:32, said:

The question arose after I opened 1NT and my partner had around 11 points with long clubs and a really unbalanced hand. We discussed various options and ruled out the direct 3♣ response, but then moved on to ask how the bidding might have gone if partner had a 17 point hand, 6 good clubs and a void.

Eh! 11 with a long minor is not the easiest hand to respond to a weak NT with. You have (or might have depending on you agreements) a whole host of possible options - all of which will be right sometimes and all of which will get egg on your face sometimes. You can
1. Pass (but you're a bit too strong - never the less 1NT can sometimes be the best spot)
2. Make a weak takeout in clubs (again you're a bit strong, but sometimes the clubs make and even 1NT doesn't - not very often though)
3. Some response systems allow you to show an invite with long clubs (possibly yours doesn't)
4. You can try an invite in NT (which will work OK when opener is max and 3NT actually makes - but will lose when opener is not max but 3NT makes anyway and also when opener refuses the invite and 2NT is off for some reason)
5. Blast 3NT (without seeing the exact hand I am guessing most of the posters here would recommend this option on balance).

Nick

[bdegrande]

In my regular partnership we have a simple rule. If there is any question whether 4NT is Blackwood, it isn't, so we play 4NT as a quantitative invite in a lot of auctions.

[ahydra]

 bdegrande, on 2014-December-18, 10:51, said:

In my regular partnership we have a simple rule. If there is any question whether 4NT is Blackwood, it isn't, so we play 4NT as a quantitative invite in a lot of auctions.

You can also play "4NT is ALWAYS Blackwood". But when you progress to RKC, I think your method is better to avoid ambiguity about which suit is trumps.

ahydra