[straube]

Looking to modify Adam's 1H-1S rebids toward having relay continuations. I think he uses 1H-1S, 1N as diamonds or some balanced and 1H-1S, 2C as clubs or 3523. Not sure. Using the 1N rebid as diamonds makes a lot more sense because 1H-1S, 1N as only 3 hand patterns (or occasional 2542 or 2524) is really under-utilized.

Here's a rough draft. We handle GI+ 4 spades elsewhere so relaying in effect shows 5+ spades.

1H-1S

1N-4+ diamonds or 2533 or 3532
.....2C-GI+ relay (hence 5+ spades). GI breaks relay at some point
..........2D-5/5
..........2H-higher short
..........2S-2533, 2542, 3532
..........etc-lower short
2C-4+ clubs
.....2D-GI+ relay (hence 5+ spades). GI breaks relay at some point
..........2H-5/5
..........2S-higher short
...............2N-GI
...............3C-GF relay?
..........2N-2524
..........etc-lower short
2D-6H
2H-good raise
.....2S-sign off
.....2N-asking
..........3C-3514
..........3D-3541
..........3H-3523
..........etc-4 spades
2S-bad raise
.....2N-asking

Any better or simpler ideas?

[straube]

Not as good but simpler?


1H-1S

1N-4+ diamonds or 2533 or 3532
.....2C-GI+ relay (hence 5+ spades). GI breaks relay at some point
..........2D-2533 or 3532
...............2H-GF relay
....................2S-2533
....................etc-3532
..........2H-5/5
..........2S-higher short
...............2N-GI
...............3C-GF relay?
..........2N-2542
..........etc-lower short
2C-4+ clubs
.....2D-GI+ relay (hence 5+ spades). GI breaks relay at some point
..........2H-5/5
..........2S-higher short
...............2N-GI
...............3C-GF relay?
..........2N-2524
..........etc-lower short
2D-6H
2H-good raise
.....2S-sign off
.....2N-asking
..........3C-3514
..........3D-3541
..........3H-3523
..........etc-4 spades
2S-bad raise
.....2N-asking

[awm]

We don't play this way because we believe in having two invites and are not nearly as addicted to relays as you are.

But if you want to relay, I suggest it would be better to play:

1♥-1♠-1NT... 2♣ = puppet to 2♦ for signoff or invite
... 2♦ = GF relay

1♥-1♠-2♣... 2♦ = GF relay (4th suit GF)

[straube]

Thanks for the suggestion. I know you've thought through this problem before.

As an aside, I do like relays but I also like that if I can find a relay continuation there is just less we have to memorize.

[straube]

1H-1S

1N-4+D or 2533
.....2C-forces 2D (thanks)
.....2D-GF ask
..........2H-4D, higher or even or 2533
..........2S-4D, lower
..........etc-5/5
.....2H-?
.....2S-?

2C-4+C
.....2D-GF ask
..........2H-4C, higher or even
..........2S-4C, lower
..........etc-5/5

2D-6H
.....2S-GF with 5+ spades. Not a relay ask

2H-good raise of spades
.....2N-GI, nf opposite 3 spades
.....3C-GF
..........3D-3514
..........3H-3541
..........3S-3523
..........3N-3532
..........splinters

2S-bad raise of spades
.....as for 2H

Not sure if the sixth heart should be shown with a 2D rebid or a 2H rebid. Also not sure what we would use 1H-1S, 2D-2H for if 2D is a good raise of spades.

Some of the bad here is that we wind up in some 4-3 spade fits with balanced hands. We have to rebid 1N with 3550 and 0553. We don't get to show balanced hands unless partner can relay.

The good is mostly that the relays are two steps lower than before. We also get to show GI 6S hands at the 2-level after either 1H-1S, 1N or 1H-1S, 2C. I think there are more wins than losses.

I suppose 1H-1S, 2D could be the 3-cd raise and then 2H would ask min/max. Alternately, 2N could ask the nature of the 3-cd raise. This would leave 1H-1S, 2S as a 4-cd raise and 2N would relay for shape. We'd be in a 9-cd fit here so the relays being a tad higher would not really be a problem.

[straube]

1H-1S

2D-3-cd raise?
.....2H-doubleton heart
..........P-11-13 balanced (3523 or 3532)
2H-6H
2S-4-cd raise
.....2N-GF relay

It might be worth trying to bail in 2H (5-2 fit) because if responder has 4 spades he has less than GI.

[straube]

ok just putting it together. nothing new this post...

1H-1S showing 5+ if GI+ or 4-5 if less than GI

1N-4 diamonds or 2533
.....2C-forces 2D for sign off or invite
..........2D-forced
...............2H-GI, 2-fit
...............2S-GI, 5S?
.....2D-GF relay
..........2H-4D, higher or even short
..........2S-4D, lower short
..........etc-5D
.....2H-2-fit?
.....2S-6S, GI?

2C-4 clubs
.....2D-GF relay
..........2H-4C, higher or even short
..........2S-4C, lower short
..........etc-5C
.....2H-preference
.....2S-6S, GI

2D-3514, 3541, 3523, 3532
.....2H-2-fit, sign off
.....2S-sign off
.....2N-ask
..........3C-3514
..........3D-3541
..........3H-3523
..........3S-3532, 6

2H-6H
.....2S-GF, 5+S, no relays

2S-4S
.....2N-relays

[yunling]

I'll suggest
1♥-1♠-2♣
-2♦ forces 2♥ for sign off or invite
-2♥ GI
-2♠ GF relay
Relays are at +1 but having 2♥ as GI is more important.

[straube]

yunling, on 2014-June-30, 06:46, said:

I'll suggest
1♥-1♠-2♣
-2♦ forces 2♥ for sign off or invite
-2♥ GI
-2♠ GF relay
Relays are at +1 but having 2♥ as GI is more important.

Thank you. There's a lot of upside to that idea.

I'm kind of debating whether 1H-2S should be GI 6 instead of the weak jump shift we use currently. This would let us get back to hearts more often (such as 1H-1S, 2H) when opener has a 6-cd suit.

We could also do

1H-1S, 2C
.....2D-GI+ relay
..........2H-weak
...............P-GI with tolerance
...............2S-GF relay at +1
..........etc-relays at +0

but that is probably too complicated for our liking.

Adam, what do you think of Yunling's idea and do you think (not having GI 4 spades contained in our 1S response) that we should use 1H-1S, 2D-2H as trying to get back to hearts after discovering a 4-3 spade fit? Or do you think it's just too important to show good vs bad spade raises? I'm guessing you prefer the latter.

[awm]

straube, on 2014-June-30, 07:56, said:

Adam, what do you think of Yunling's idea and do you think (not having GI 4 spades contained in our 1S response) that we should use 1H-1S, 2D-2H as trying to get back to hearts after discovering a 4-3 spade fit? Or do you think it's just too important to show good vs bad spade raises? I'm guessing you prefer the latter.

The 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦ inv+ relay version seemed fine to me, but I agree Yunling's idea is better than what I originally suggested (actually got from Noble Shore, although I may have misremembered his method).

I like to show good vs. bad raises, but also use 2♥ in the auction you gave to get back to hearts opposite a three-card raise. There are plenty of 3-card raises in 2♦ also. My opinion on this is somewhat different in a "standard" system though where there are hard-to-bid 3-card support and extras hands that just don't exist in strong club, and where light openings and responses don't tie you into needing two invites.

[straube]

I was running the 3S/6H hands and was glad to see how often rebidding 2D (max/fit) resulted in the best fit. I guess you have the inference that 1H-1S, 2H-2S, 3S is a minimum hand.

As long as 1H-1S, 2D-2H shows 4S/2H and minimum, it would be handy if 1H-1S, 2D handled both 3532 and 3523 (because then we could get back to a 2H contract) but I imagine they usually (when 11-12) raise spades weakly (1H-1S, 2S) and only strongly when 13.

[straube]

1H-1S showing 5+ if GI+ or 4-5 if less than GI

1N-4 diamonds or 2533
.....2C-forces 2D for sign off or invite
..........2D-forced
...............2H-GI, 2-fit
...............2S-GI, 5S?
.....2D-GF relay
..........2H-4D, higher or even short
..........2S-4D, lower short
..........etc-5D
.....2H-2-fit
.....2S-6S, sign off

2C-4 clubs
.....2D-GF relay
..........2H-4C, higher or even short
..........2S-4C, lower short
..........etc-5C
.....2H-preference
.....2S-6S, sign off

alternate 2C-4 clubs continuations
.....2D-GI+ relay
..........2H-minimum
...............2S-GF relay
....................2N-4C, higher or even short
....................3C-etc
..........2S-4C, higher or even short
..........etc
.....2H-preference
.....2S-6S, sign off


2D-13-15, 3514, 3541, 3523, 3532, 3S/6H or 4S
.....2H-2-fit, sign off
.....2S-sign off
.....2N-GI 4S 10-11
.....3C-GF ask
..........3D-3523, 3532
..........3H-6H
..........3S-3514
..........3N-3541
..........4C-4S, higher
..........4D-4S, lower

2H-6H, not 3S unless 12
.....2S-GF, 5+S, no relays

2S-13-15 raise
.....3C-GF ask

Would like something more mnemonic for the 2D and 2S spade raises. Maybe we don't have to ask at all as responder will have 5 spades if he ventures to the 3-level for either raise.

[Kungsgeten]

If I understand correctly you play 1H-1S as showing spades, and then responder may continue with relays? Is 1H-2C also a relay? If so, does it deny 5 spades? When would responder like to first show spades and then relay (when no fit is found) vs starting the relays right away?

To me it makes sense to use 1H-1S as two-way: forcing NT (0-4 spades) or relay. Then 1H-1NT shows 5+ spades (you could play it as less than GF if you want to relay with all GF hands). This also frees up 1H-2C for other uses, perhaps some awkward hand, some kind of GI, support showing, transfer to diamonds, or just non-forcing. There's ofcourse downsides too since you haven't established a GF yet (if fourth hand bids) and it will probably be harder to play 1NT (since 1H-1S; 1NT would be balanced or diamonds).

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-July-02, 02:01, said:

If I understand correctly you play 1H-1S as showing spades, and then responder may continue with relays? Is 1H-2C also a relay? If so, does it deny 5 spades? When would responder like to first show spades and then relay (when no fit is found) vs starting the relays right away?

To me it makes sense to use 1H-1S as two-way: forcing NT (0-4 spades) or relay. Then 1H-1NT shows 5+ spades (you could play it as less than GF if you want to relay with all GF hands). This also frees up 1H-2C for other uses, perhaps some awkward hand, some kind of GI, support showing, transfer to diamonds, or just non-forcing. There's ofcourse downsides too since you haven't established a GF yet (if fourth hand bids) and it will probably be harder to play 1NT (since 1H-1S; 1NT would be balanced or diamonds).

We play 1H-1S as spades. If responder has 4 spades and GI values he responds 2C and then bids anything but step 1 after opener's rebid to show that he has GI 4 spades and not a GF hand. GF hands relay opener's hand for full shape. So if we have 5 spades and GI+ strength we start with a 1S response. We also use 1H-2S as GI 6 spades.

I think we want 1S to be 4+ spades so as to find our 4/4 spade fits. Not sure how you accomplish this if 1S is 0-4 spades but perhaps it can be done.

Here's what we agreed on and it's not optimum but doesn't overly tax our memories.

1H-1S...

1N-4+ diamonds or 2533
.....P-allowed
.....2C-forces 2D for pass or invite
.....2D-GF relay
.....2H-preference
.....2S-sign off

2C-4+ clubs
.....2D-GF relay
.....2H-preference
.....2S-sign off

2D-3-4 spades and 13-15, may have 3523,3532, 3514, 3541, 3S6H, any with 4S
.....2H-weak, 4S/2H
..........P-3S or 4S/6H
..........2S-4S
.....2S-sign off
.....2N-4S, roughly 11 hcps
.....etc-game tries with 5+ spades (note that GI+ with 4 spades is not possible)

2H-6H, could have side minor, could have 3S if minimum
.....2S-GF 5 spades
.....3m-GF 5/5

2S-3-4 spades and 10-15, same shapes as for 2D except not 6H

2N-max, 6H/5m
.....3C-p/c
.....3D-asks the minor
.....3H-to play

3m-max, 5H/6m

3H-invitational

3S-invitational, likely 5 spades

[Kungsgeten]

Here's a 1H--1S relay scheme, which can be tweaked ofcourse. I personally like to play Flannery, so then the 2D rebid would show max with 6+ hearts (there would also be no risk to miss a 4-4 spade fit in case fourth hand preeempts). Below you also have a problem to find a 4-4 spade partscore if opener is 4-5-(40).

1H--1S;
1N = 3+ diamonds
...Pass = Possible
...2C = Puppet to 2D, as suggested by awm
...2D = R.
......2H = Bal
......2S = Three-suited
......2N = Long legged
......3C+ = Short legged
...2H = To play
...2S = INV, 4 spades, suggests a 4-3 fit
...Other = Nat INV (presumably)
2C = 4+ clubs or 3-5-2-3
...Pass = Club preference
...2D = R. Responses as over the 2D relay above.
...2H = Preference
...2S = INV, 4 spades, suggests a 4-3 fit
...Other = Nat INV
2D = 4 spades, short legged
...Pass = Possible, though unlikely
...2HS = Preference
...2N = R.
...Other = Nat INV.
2H = 6+ hearts, single-suited
...2S = R.
...Other = Nat INV.

It is also possible to make 2H be either bal or three-suited, and then 2S could be short legged min.

[straube]

I like it. I think I'd not want to relay over the 2H rebid because i'd like to be able to rebid 2H with certain 6/4s. Also a little concerned that 1H-1S, 2D-2N isn't GI. What's your structure after 1H-1N?


If 1S promises spades then opener is able to raise spades which gives him 5 likely rebids instead of 4. So sometimes we're misdirected (into a Moysian spade fit when some other fit may be better) but using IMPrecision rebids, we're also able to show min/max spade raises (3 or 4 fit) instead of showing 4 spades 10-15.

A plus for your structure is that you can relay at +0 or better while when we don't have five spades we're relaying at +1.

[Kungsgeten]

Yes its a bit of a problem that 1H-1S; 2D-2NT is the relay. This is also somewhat solved playing Flannery, since then 1H--1S; 2D is 6+ hearts max and 1H--1S; 2H is 6+ hearts min.

Over 1H--1N I guess the continuation would be very natural (as is the case if playing Kaplan Inversion/Interchange, which this basically is). I guees 2m would be 3+ suit, while 2M is natural. 2NT could be max with support and 3X would be natural with extras. I haven't played the structure suggested, just a thought.

[yunling]

Just for something fancy
1♥-
……1♠=weak with 0-4♠/invite with 4-5♠/GF relay
…………1NT=bal or 4+♦
………………2♣=force 2♦, SO or any inv
………………2♦=GF relay
……………………2♥=bal
……………………2♠+=5+♥-4+♦,step +0
………………2♥=SO
…………2♣=4+♣
………………2♦=inv+ relay
………………2♥=SO
………………2♠=nat inv
…………2♦=4+♠
………………2♥/2♠=SO
………………2NT=GF relay, step +1
…………2♥=6+♥
……1NT=weak with 5+♠
…………2♠=can be doubleton
…………else=nat
……2♣=♦ NFB, or invite with 0-3 or 6+♠
…………2♦=nothing special
………………Pass=♦ NFB
………………else=nat inv
…………else=nat max, promising 3♦
……2♦=good ♥ raise
……2♥=bad ♥ raise
……2♠=weak 6+♠