[helene_t]

Partner opens 1♥, you hold 4324, 17 HCPs. The auction:
1♥-1♠
2♦-3♣*
3♠-6♥
pass

This is great. Two "relays" and still you don't know anything useful about partners hand. And you have no way of bidding hearts in a forcing way. It must be possible to construct a better bidding system.

A Flannery proponent might say that the problem is that you are forced to bid 4thSF, which primarely asks for 3-card spade support, on hands that don't want to hear about spades. But I have the feeling that Flannery would only patch this particular problem, leaving a more general flaw in 4thSF convention. In the Oranje Klaveren system (not to be confused with Orange Club), an immediate 2♣ is a GF relay, that would probably help. But I thougt about a solution that is more in line with the general filosophy of Standard American.

Usually, the secondary meaning of a relay is a hand too weak for a direct, descriptive call. This is how Lebensohl and negative doubles work. Asking the wrong question is inefficient use of bidding space, and we would rather be inefficient with weak hands than with strong hands. So I propose 4thSF being used with invitational hands with a preference for one of the bid suits. In this particulary case:
1♥-1♠
2♦-?
2♥ false preference
2♠ sign-off
2NT non-forcing
3♣ either a limited raise of diamonds or an invitational 3♥ or 3♠
3♦ Choice-of-game (forcing!)
3♥ forcing
3♠ forcing

Is this a good idea? BTW, 6♥ was cold.

[EricK]

I think Richard Pavlicek's system uses FSF as invitational and other 3 level bids as GF. You can check it out on his website. http://www.rpbridge.net/

On the sort of hand you quoted, it is often better to initially respond in ♣ rather than ♠ because...

It shows a stronger hand
You do not really want partner to raise with 3 card ♠ support
Your FSF bid will come at the two level

Eric

[HeartA]

EricK, on Feb 16 2005, 03:20 AM, said:

I think Richard Pavlicek's system uses FSF as invitational and other 3 level bids as GF. You can check it out on his website. http://www.rpbridge.net/

On the sort of hand you quoted, it is often better to initially respond in ♣ rather than ♠ because...

It shows a stronger hand
You do not really want partner to raise with 3 card ♠ support
Your FSF bid will come at the two level

Eric

Agree. To respond 2♣ at first round make life easier.