[inquiry]

Free, on Feb 11 2005, 11:30 AM, said:

fred, on Feb 10 2005, 10:22 PM, said:

My style is to open 3H

inquiry said:

An opening bid of 3♥ is, imho at this color and at imps, wacky...

lol.. cute...

Well I put a condition on my 3♥ bid.. if both vul, here I would open 3♥... I assume Fred bids 3♥ at both vul as well at the unfavorable one here.

I will not try to explain why fred is "wrong" (you should listen to fred rather than me on all things bridge)... but for me, it is clear that at imps (not mp, imps) that at these colors, 3♥ opening bid is wrong... at least for me.

First, when I open 3♥ at this vul, my partner with"
♠xxxx ♥Q ♦xxxx ♣Axxx can raise to game.. as I promised 8 tricks, and he has two for me (my vul versus non-vul allows you to count tricks). Here four hearts gets ripped if your partner raises with this. Of course, playing with a partner who opens 3♥ on the kind of hand we have here, you would know to pass.

Second, the gain/loss ratio is all wrong. If they have huge spade fit, your 3♥ bid is not talking them out of anything, and if the hands misfit you rate to be too high with your neck stuck out. Reverse spades and hearts, a "stretch" to 3♠ or opening 2♠ to introduce the idea of potential 4♠ save over 4♥ is more attractive.

Besides, ever read any of the bidding contest things? People can disagree and no method is right all the time. I highlighted 3♥ as "wacky" to illustrate how utterly suicical 4♥ was, not to point out that 3♥ itself was a terrible bid... read my comments in context of the discussion on why no 4♥ option in the poll (which is what I was commenting on).

Besides, here is a good place for Fred to learn a better way to bid.... hehehehe....

Ben

[cherdano]

Ben, I also find your 5431-rule a little tight in the vul vs not case. Why do you accept
-500 when non-vul vs non-vul, but only -200 when vul vs non-vul?

On a side note, I must say I find it extremely unlikely to get doubled with the above hand if you open it 3♥ or 4♥. I don't see the dealer reopening with a double at this level if he couldn't open in first seat. So the only case is when LHO makes a take-out (or card-showing?) double and RHO a flat hand that sees the best chance for a plus in 3♥X. Ok, maybe if RHO has ♥ AQxx in which case he can be pretty sure to score the ♥Q.

[mr1303]

Just my opinion, but if you can raise a vul pre-empt to 4 on:

xxxx
Q
xxxx
Axxx

and expect it to make, your pre-empts look more like Acol 2 bids to me.

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Feb 11 2005, 12:00 PM, said:

Ben, I also find your 5431-rule a little tight in the vul vs not case. Why do you accept
-500 when non-vul vs non-vul, but only -200 when vul vs non-vul?

On a side note, I must say I find it extremely unlikely to get doubled with the above hand if you open it 3♥ or 4♥. I don't see the dealer reopening with a double at this level if he couldn't open in first seat. So the only case is when LHO makes a take-out (or card-showing?) double and RHO a flat hand that sees the best chance for a plus in 3♥X. Ok, maybe if RHO has ♥ AQxx in which case he can be pretty sure to score the ♥Q.

The reason being, that your opponents are much more willing to go for blood (my blood) when I am vul and they are not than at any other time. So when they can get me for 500 instead of game for them, they are much less likely to take me when they have me. Also, if I am going down that many (at the three level say), odds are they are making overtricks, so instead of 420, they maybe 450 or even 480.. (of 980).

Thus, experience, and bidding theory, suggest the opponents are much more likely to bid on if you are not vul than if you are. They are even more likely to bid on if they are vul and you are not. On the downside... when they do decide to stay and double you in your prempted suit.... it can be very bloody... :-(...

But the short answer is frequency. You are much more likely to doubled for penalty at vul versus not than at other conditions. Now, if you like, feel free to use 5431. I happen to know people who use 4421 and 5421 (down at most two vul versus vul, down one vul versus not). I think the biggest thing to do is to agree with your partner what level applies and how does position (first seat, second seat, third seat) affect the expected values for the bid.

[mikestar]

My rules for preemptive openings are:

Appropriate playing strenght for the vulnerablity and position.

Decent trumps.

Not too much defense.


A shortcut I use for the last two rules is at least half of my HCP must be in trumps. By this standard this hand is a 1h openenr or a pass is\f playing sound openings.


As for appropriate playing strength, I start with 4332 and adjust as follows:

Lean toward aggression NV, toward conservatism vul.
Lean toward aggression in third seat, toward conservatism in second seat.

(Fourth seat is a bit sounder than 2nd unfavorable at any vul. and may have better defense.)

To quantify this for the case at hand, I start off at down tow then lead conservative once for vulnerable and again for 2nd set, so I'd want to be within about 1 1/3 fo my bid (down 1 with decent luck).

So if I were to preempt, this hand is only worth 2H and I ahte waek twos on a seven card suit. On the other hand 3rd ahnd favorable, I'd probably disregrad the ecxcess defense and open 4H.

[fred]

I find it surprising that in all of the many posts in this thread, nobody has offered an example of what a 3H opening looks like to them in this position/vul combination. I often find it useful to consider the "prototypical hand" for various preemptive actions and, if I consider the actual hand relatively close to the prototype, I will tend to go with that action. Of course what constitutes "relatively close" is a matter of judgment and what constitutes the prototypical hand is a matter of style.

Let's think about the heart suit itself. Here are some questions (assume you are vul versus not in 2nd seat for all of these):

1. Would you ever open 3H on KJ109xxx? If yes, what would the rest of your hand look like? Would the hand in question be an acceptable 3H opening if you didn't have the Queen of clubs (ie you had less than 10 HCP)?

2. I assume you would sometimes open 3H on KQJ10xxx? If you had no other high cards would you do this with 7222? 7321? 7411? Would have a side Queen ever made a difference? How about a side King?

3. I assume you would sometimes open 3H on AKJ10xxx? Would the rest of your distribution matter? If you had a side Queen (and therefore 10 HCP) would you automatically open 1 now?

4. If you opened 3H with an 8-card suit, what would your suit and hand look like?

I am not really expecting people to post their answers to these questions, but I believe that if you think about them, a lot of people will conclude that the hand in question is not much different from the prototypical 3H opening (unless you have a "rule" that you NEVER open a 3-bid with a side Ace).

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe it is a duck

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[whereagles]

Well.. my minimum for a V vs NV 2nd hand 3♥ pree would be

x
KQJTxx
QJxx
xx

yes 6 cards only. So what? Sue me... lol. My max:

x
AKJTxxx
Qxx
xx

With Kxx of diams instead, or the AKQ of hearts, I'd open 4♥. (Or 3NT gambling with AKQ.)

[mila85]

fred, on Feb 10 2005, 04:22 PM, said:

This is a style and partnership question. My style is to open 3H, but I have no problem with either 1H or 2H as long as your partner expects you to do that with a hand like this. I don't like 4H myself, but again it is more important that your partner likes your bid than that I like it.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Yes, I absolutely agree. There is no right answer to this question.

Quote

@mila: If you choose Multi please vote 2♥. Multi is not part of the system for this hand.

I can't vote 2♥. With another partner (another system, no multi, weak twos in major) I can open 1 ♥ or 4♥ because I can have different argeements about strength of my openings.

Quote

I was about to pass when I decided that I could get away with something here and I bid 3♥ instead. That didn't work the way I wanted as partner raised to 4♥ (opps silent) and tabled: ...

I think that pass is the worst action you can do. I don't need to preempt opps but I'm arfraid of being preempted from them...