[madge19]

is two nt by opener after a constructive major suit raise forcing on responder

[dake50]

I prefer it so. Let no game chances pass in 2M.
Some chance accepts 3M as quits, maybe a level too high
in exchange for a gooder 4M decision.

[hrothgar]

Most partnerships I know use a step bid as some kind of artificial asking bid.

For example, the might use long suit game tries directly over the raise and use step to ask what short suit game tries partner would accept.

[aguahombre]

To answer the OP: Yes, it cannot be passed. Whatever you choose it to mean within your game-try structure, Responder doesn't get to leave you sitting in 2NT.

With your given "constructive raise" condition, Responder already has shown the values to accept non-descript game tries from Opener. A raise to 3NT is possible with a flatty and only 3 trumps.

[dboxley]

aguahombre, on 2014-February-18, 11:21, said:

To answer the OP: Yes, it cannot be passed. Whatever you choose it to mean within your game-try structure, Responder doesn't get to leave you sitting in 2NT.

With your given "constructive raise" condition, Responder already has shown the values to accept non-descript game tries from Opener. A raise to 3NT is possible with a flatty and only 3 trumps.

Do you really mean that an 8 point raise will automatically accept any "non-descript" game try by opener? In that case 2NT must be GF, so is it a slam try or what? Maybe I am missing something in what you said.

[aguahombre]

dboxley, on 2014-February-19, 16:07, said:

Do you really mean that an 8 point raise will automatically accept any "non-descript" game try by opener? In that case 2NT must be GF, so is it a slam try or what? Maybe I am missing something in what you said.

What I meant was that if 1M-2M is a constructive raise, and Opener has a hand which was going to make a quantitative game try, she already knows I have more than the 7-ish which would decline; so she will just bid game. The constructive raise has narrowed 6-10 to a good 8-10 (10, if flat with only 3 trumps). That would leave us some game tries, but they would be SS or LS or whatever....2NT would be something the partnership agrees to, maybe game forcing meanings, but it won't be passable.

[mycroft]

I can't imagine a situation where I've said "we have a major fit, with a very limited (and good) range", and want to play anything but our suit (exceptions: double fits in slam, and 3NT, of course). "Natural, invitational, willing to play in NT, rather play 2NT than 3M" is such a dime to stop on that any advantage one may get from making it forcing has to be worth more than NF. I see several advantages above.

So, it's forcing.

[Mbodell]

About the only time I think it could be passed is if you play constructive raises by passed hand, and have 2nt over P-1M-2M show a balanced invite, possibly with only 4 of the major to begin with (assuming in 3/4 you don't always have 5). Then with a non-accept a pass might be reasonable.

[helene_t]

madge19, on 2014-February-18, 09:04, said:

is two nt by opener after a constructive major suit raise forcing on responder

Hi Madge, welcome to the forum!

Many newcomers think that the "expert" forum is for getting advice from experts. That is not the case. The expert forum is for discussion of advanced topics (the ones which experts themselves are not always sure about) among experts. If you have a basic question, raise it in an appropriate forum (for example "natural bidding" or "novice/beginner"). Experts will answer questions there, also.

Something else: It is a good idea to state precisely what your question is. Obviously different partnerships have different agreements about which bids are forcing. So what is it that you want to know? Whether it is forcing in a particular system (say BWS) or whether we think it should be forcing in our favourite system?

But I will try to answer anyway!

Of course the 2NT bid itself can't be passed. Is your question whether a subsequent 3M bid by opener can be passed? I would say yes (assuming "normal" bidding methods) but obviously it depends on your agreements. If the auction goes
1♠-2♠
2NT-3♦
3♠
I would take the 3♠ bid as meaning "I had a game try but after hearing about your diamond feature I am not so enthusiast anymore". Responder will normally pass but doesn't have to - he might have an accept of any game try and just wanted to show the diamond feature in case opener was looking for slam.

If you play 4-card majors and weak 1NT there is a case for making the 2NT rebid nonforcing but the expression "constructive raise" is used by 5-card majors players AFAIK so that is probably what you are referring to.

[dboxley]

aguahombre, on 2014-February-19, 16:26, said:

What I meant was that if 1M-2M is a constructive raise, and Opener has a hand which was going to make a quantitative game try, she already knows I have more than the 7-ish which would decline; so she will just bid game. The constructive raise has narrowed 6-10 to a good 8-10 (10, if flat with only 3 trumps). That would leave us some game tries, but they would be SS or LS or whatever....2NT would be something the partnership agrees to, maybe game forcing meanings, but it won't be passable.

Are you saying that the requirements for a game try are the same opposite a constructive raise as they are opposite a 6-10 raise? Or are you saying that game tries are unnecessesary opposite constructive raises? Is Qxx,Kxx of trump,QJx,Jxxx as good as AQxx, Qxx of trump,xxxx,xx?

[aguahombre]

dboxley, on 2014-February-21, 13:10, said:

Are you saying that the requirements for a game try are the same opposite a constructive raise as they are opposite a 6-10 raise? Or are you saying that game tries are unnecessesary opposite constructive raises? Is Qxx,Kxx of trump,QJx,Jxxx as good as AQxx, Qxx of trump,xxxx,xx?

No. I am saying that a constructive raise has already been evaluated by Responder as the upper range of a simple raise. If opener wants Responder to evaluate location of her strength/weakness, opener will make an agreed upon try so that can happen. Responder might even bid 3NT over 2NT with the super flat 9 or ten count scattered.

Anyway, I have reached my limit of back-and-forths for one thread.

[jallerton]

madge19, on 2014-February-18, 09:04, said:

is two nt by opener after a constructive major suit raise forcing on responder

This depends on partnership agreements. If you are playing a conventional structure of rebids after 1M-2M then it makes sense to play 2NT as forcing.

If you are playing all game tries as natural, then there's no need to play 2NT as forcing. When would it gain to do so? On the other hand, when Responder is rejecting the game try and both hands are no-trumpy, 2NT is more likely to make than 3M.