[diana_eva]

You hop in a TM game as a sub. Decent partner, you can assume expert standard. No agreements except 2/1

---

What is 3S?
What would you bid as South?

[aguahombre]

Pattern. And since the vast bulk of my holdings are in Hearts, 3NT seems called for.

However, I considered differently (optimistically) ---my fourth diamond, QX of Clubs and Heart bullet are really nice, and maybe 4H would work better. But I decided to let Pard move over 3NT and then come alive if those cards are going to get us to slam...if that doesn't happen and slam is on, I take the charge.

I didn't expect those OP conditions, however, in this forum.

[diana_eva]

aguahombre, on 2013-November-24, 11:21, said:

...
I didn't expect those OP conditions, however, in this forum.

Thanks Aqua. I thought this is down to the basics, however I didn't know what to do as South at the table - hence the forum. One can have an expert partner and not know how to handle a basic sequence

[aguahombre]

Well, here is my thought about the forum. It might be a basic situation, but there are probably differing opinions about the "expert standard" meaning of 3S. And, the hand evaluation for responder is questionable enough so that, if I am wrong about my choice I don't think I should also place myself permanently in the B/N category. Others have already done that for me

[monikrazy]

My first guess would have been 3C is a non-forcing splinter. If I were to bid 3D here it would be a cue bid for hearts so I would just sign-off in 4H rather than bid 3d.

Maybe 3C -> 4D is an option, to offer a choice of game without encouraging slam.


If 3C is natural I would expect 3S to promise a stop and bid 3N to play.

[aguahombre]

monikrazy, on 2013-November-24, 15:36, said:

3C is non-forcing splinter right?

So I think would just sign-off in 4H rather than bid 3d.

Did you read the OP or just make that up? 3C is a mama-papa natural jump shift rebid.

[monikrazy]

aguahombre, on 2013-November-24, 15:39, said:

Did you read the OP or just make that up? 3C is a mama-papa natural jump shift rebid.

Didn't mean to edit while you/we were xposting.. I thought non-forcing splinters was expert standard, thus my initial confusion.


**non-forcing as in not forcing to game

[akwoo]

My instinct says 3♠ asks for a stop rather than showing one, and hence I would bid 5♦.

But I'm not an expert, and don't know expert standard. I can certainly see that my instinct would mean North has to bid 3N on many hands with singleton or void in hearts, and that might make for a poor agreement.

[the hog]

diana_eva, on 2013-November-24, 08:35, said:

You hop in a TM game as a sub. Decent partner, you can assume expert standard. No agreements except 2/1

---

What is 3S?
What would you bid as South?

3S is stopper asking, not patterning out. I do not have a S stopper, so I bid 4D.

[diana_eva]

OK so this wasn't as basic as I thought. Felt really bad at the table for not knowing for sure what 3S means.

[wank]

asking for a stop or if responder bids 3nt and opener bids on, an advanced cuebid.

[diana_eva]

wank, on 2013-November-24, 19:29, said:

asking for a stop or if responder bids 3nt and opener bids on, an advanced cuebid.

Yup, that's exactly how my pd explained it too. He had Qx in spades:

---

I was blinded by my 4th diamond, the Qx in clubs and heart Ace so proceeded to cue H directly, skipping NT.

[RSClyde]

I'd just bid 3nt with his hand after 3♦. 1) Nobody overcalled a spade 2) I have some reasonable help there 3)If they are taking the first 5 spades in no trump we may not make 5♦ anyway 4)The biggy: this needs to play on my side to protect my Qx. There are many holdings where we need the lead to ride around to the doubleton Q. 5) If slam is there partner can take another call: I've said what I have.

[aguahombre]

So, by accident, thinking pattern and bidding 3NT works. Luck is a good thing.

[diana_eva]

aguahombre, on 2013-November-25, 08:28, said:

So, by accident, thinking pattern and bidding 3NT works. Luck is a good thing.

That's not the point. On this hand it made no difference (IMPs, both 3N and 5D make). But I like to "know" what pd is showing, at least on the very first rounds on bidding, instead of guessing.

[aguahombre]

It is amusing, however, that the same spade Jack which makes 3NT cold makes 5D cold no matter who has the club King. They have the option of giving you a third club pitch with the Spade Jack or allowing one or more Spade pitches on a Heart.

[RSClyde]

diana_eva, on 2013-November-25, 10:22, said:

That's not the point. On this hand it made no difference (IMPs, both 3N and 5D make). But I like to "know" what pd is showing, at least on the very first rounds on bidding, instead of guessing.

I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. 3nt is worth a little more since it makes 5. I assume that the other table will reach some game. I think that 3♠ should ask if you can bid 3nt with a spade card. With Jxx and no one overcalling? It's possible. But I think your partner should have already bid it: at least I would have.

[Zelandakh]

3♠ here is what is known as a grope. It is a bid in a cramped auction that says nothing more than denying the ability to make a more defined call. So Opener is denying delayed heart support, denying the ability to bid 3NT and denying (for the time being) the ability to push for a diamond slam. Most of the time this simply means that they want to play 3NT but do not have a spade stopper. It can also be, for example, an advance cue bid for diamonds though.

These grope bids are common in cramped auctions and very often seen in jump shift suctions like this. There are slightly different ways of playing them though so it is a good thing to discuss with a regular partner. Some pairs, for example, always use the cheapest call as their grope. If 3♥ were the grope on the example hand, Responder could advance 3♠ over that to show a half stopper reaching 3NT with confidence. Obviously, the downside is having less space to investigate a heart fit.

One last thing is that you almost never see gropes mentioned in bridge texts aimed at beginners, which is a shame as they are incredibly useful. So any true beginners feel free to wipe the last 2 paragraphs from your mind if you find the concept confusing. That agua came up with a different answer shows that this question is possibly already above B/N level.

[mr1303]

What Zeland said

3S is DSIP

Do Something Intelligent Partner

It invariably denies 6-6 in the minors or something like Kxx of hearts.

[gszes]

Majors/NT/minors if we bid looking for results in this order it cleans up a lot of bidding sequences

after 1d 1h 3c since we are in a game forcing auction, having found it impossible to have a major suit fit,
our number one priority is to look for NT. The 3d bid might look right since it "prefers" diamonds but
it is a short sighted strategy that does not even promise a fit (for ex what would you bid if you preferred
clubs to dia 4c?) a much better bid instead of 3d would have been 3s ---this shows a partial spade stopper
(3n = full stop) and is a strong tactical bid for seeking 3NT (our preferred tactical goal at this time).

As it happens partner now has an easy 3n bid to end the bidding. Now lets go back to the auction that really
happened what now is 3s since responder would seem to have denied any spade partial/stop with that 3d bid???
IMO the 3s bid is essentially a waiting bid which means opener has pretty much described their hand or it is
a cue bid for dia which we will discover later. It is not unreasonable for responder to now bid 3n since they
are flat and opener might have 3 small spades also and 3n is the last makeable spot. opener will understand
that responder has no spade stop and could opt to play there or go for a more difficult 5d. If we land in 3n this
way it is rather lucky but nothing wrong with that.