Quote
End of appeals in WBF events
#1
Posted 2013-September-26, 15:07
#2
Posted 2013-September-26, 15:41
Tuesday's Balu Bulletin, quoted by Jallerton said:
Anonymous, quoted by George Alexander Stevens said:
The end of our loves, and the end of our lives,
The end of conjunction, 'twixt mistress and male,
Tho' the head may design, has its end in the tail.
The end of case-law, the end of catharsis. We hope ...
The end of enormous WBF expenses but not the end of the game of Bridge
#3
Posted 2013-September-26, 16:09
(If a conclave of directors makes a ruling, should there be white smoke eminating from the conclave from the burning of the hand records?)
#4
Posted 2013-September-26, 18:24
ArtK78, on 2013-September-26, 16:09, said:
I predict that any and all such cases will provoke a major controversy. And the WBF seems to be treading the path the ACBL has already blazed -- Law 92 can be ignored if that is what we prefer.
A lot of trouble could be saved between now and 2017 if the drafting committee just didn't bother, and let all SOs make up their own version of the Laws.
#5
Posted 2013-September-28, 11:41
ArtK78, on 2013-September-26, 16:09, said:
(If a conclave of directors makes a ruling, should there be white smoke eminating from the conclave from the burning of the hand records?)
Is that the collective noun for directors? I thought "drunkenship", "chattering" or "hastiness", which are collective nouns, were more appropriate.
#6
Posted 2013-September-28, 14:11
#7
Posted 2013-September-28, 14:33
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#9
Posted 2013-September-30, 04:40
nigel_k, on 2013-September-28, 14:11, said:
The EBL introduced this for the European Open Championships earlier this year but then, even though planned, did not continue with it at the European Youth Championships because the directors were less experienced.
I hope this suggests common sense will be used, even at European and World level.
I doubt it'll be discussed much in the UK but I wouldn't mind certain English events just using TDs - Premier League and the Summer Congress at Brighton are two events where the top directors are easily good enough and there are sufficient experts around to ask. I doubt anyone wants it in Scotland, where the TDs are less experienced with high-level events.
#10
Posted 2013-September-30, 09:01
iviehoff, on 2013-September-30, 03:41, said:
That's a reason, I suppose, but it wasn't among the reasons I was thinking of, those being "they're a PITA, and they take up too much time".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#11
Posted 2013-September-30, 10:50
paulg, on 2013-September-30, 04:40, said:
I hope this suggests common sense will be used, even at European and World level.
I doubt it'll be discussed much in the UK but I wouldn't mind certain English events just using TDs - Premier League and the Summer Congress at Brighton are two events where the top directors are easily good enough and there are sufficient experts around to ask. I doubt anyone wants it in Scotland, where the TDs are less experienced with high-level events.
- Allow players to purge their demons,
- Provide independent review,
- Help ensure fairness,
- Show justice being done,
- Point out flaws in rules,
- Create what amounts to case-law, and
- Spawn books of case-history/comment to entertain and educate players, directors and rule-makers.
#12
Posted 2013-September-30, 14:23
iviehoff, on 2013-September-30, 03:41, said:
I dislike club committees, but certainly not because of any fear of an adverse assessment of my work. If I make an error I want the players to get the correct ruling, and I want to learn to do better in future. In any case, for the most part committees are making a deeper analysis of the bridge issues involved in a ruling, so that overturning the table ruling is by no means necessarily an indication that the director erred.
My objections to committees are:
- They delay the results at a time when players are anxious to get away (our games are held in the evening, ending around 11pm);
- They impose on the time of those who generously agree to sit (though we do give a free play to committee members as partial recompense);
- They cost the club money (3 free plays);
- It can be hard to find a suitable committee.
Occasionally I have organized a post-game committee via email, but the lack of easy back-and-forth interaction makes that unsatisfactory, and it is even more time-consuming, with results delayed interminably.
We will continue to have committees (about once every 3 months, in practice), because the players deserve fair, independent arbitration, but I will continue to regret the need to hold them.
#13
Posted 2013-September-30, 15:24
nige1, on 2013-September-30, 10:50, said:
- Allow players to purge their demons,
- Provide independent review,
- Help ensure fairness,
- Show justice being done,
- Point out flaws in rules,
- Create what amounts to case-law, and
- Spawn books of case-history/comment to entertain and educate players, directors and rule-makers.
I think players should pay for their own therapy.
We have lamford and gnasher, amongst others, to point flaws.
Casebooks are expensive to produce and that, in reality, few people read. This forum is more useful than the casebooks.
You haven't convinced me that an appeals committee will produce a fairer result than suitably experienced directors with access to world-class players.
#14
Posted 2013-October-04, 08:21
Neither of these things bode well for the end of appeal committees although given the speech at each captains meeting which includes "Don't even think of appealing because we have the best directors on the planet, who are never wrong and you WILL lose your money" it was perhaps inevitable.
Theoretically there should be some cost advantage as the dozen or so appeal committee members put up in 7 star hotels will no longer be needed and travelling expenses from Ursa Major will also be reduced.
I wondered whether for Bali they had considered having judges in the Miss World competition, which took place in the same building, doubling up as appeal committee members.
#15
Posted 2013-October-04, 09:45
Sometime we might want to share what we believe experienced TD's are experienced AT. Over here, it seems seasoned professional TD's have honed their law-knowledge, organizational and people skills.
Bob Dischner, Max Hardy, and perhaps about five others in ACBL history whom I won't name because they are still alive and active found the time to develope Bridge judgement to apply to their rulings effectively. We still need comittees. Mere consultation with expert players of their choice won't get it done.
#16
Posted 2013-October-05, 07:03
Jeremy69A, on 2013-October-04, 08:21, said:
When people started getting excited at poor umpiring decisions in this summers Ashes tests they began to appreciate that an awful lot of the best umpires come from England and Australia and could not stand in the series. In a WBF event such as Bali the best directors may be present but their effect is diluted by the "need" to have directors from each of the zones. When players are polled their minds are on other things and they often, I feel, give an answer designed to get rids of the polling TD as soon as possible.
Neither of these things bode well for the end of appeal committees although given the speech at each captains meeting which includes "Don't even think of appealing because we have the best directors on the planet, who are never wrong and you WILL lose your money" it was perhaps inevitable.
Theoretically there should be some cost advantage as the dozen or so appeal committee members put up in 7 star hotels will no longer be needed and travelling expenses from Ursa Major will also be reduced.
I wondered whether for Bali they had considered having judges in the Miss World competition, which took place in the same building, doubling up as appeal committee members.
hmmm. we have the best is not synonymous with being able to pass muster. Inclusive of those referenced.
#17
Posted 2013-October-05, 08:25
paulg, on 2013-September-30, 15:24, said:
Casebooks are expensive to produce and that, in reality, few people read. This forum is more useful than the casebooks.
You haven't convinced me that an appeals committee will produce a fairer result than suitably experienced directors with access to world-class players.
- Perhaps appeals should cost more and perhaps a player should not be allowed to appeal if a certain number/percentage of his previous appeals have been rejected over the previous year. But an appeals committee does provide an audience and time for an appellant to get his grievance off his chest and it may be able to explain the reasons for its decision, in terms that he can understand. The aims of a game should include happy players.
- The ACBL and EBU produce on-line bulletins and case-books for appeals in major events. They are amusing and instructive. IMO they would be worth the effort and cost, even if consulted only by rule-makers.
- Director-reviews seem to inhibit appeals. Grattan Endicott judges that there were cases worth review that would-be appellants didn't not take further. Perhaps the perception is that a review by people from the same group who made the original decision is unlikely to change it. Judging from posts here by players, who experienced the new process, it is inefficient and slow. AFAIR Individuals had to button-hole a series of individual directors, trying to persuade them that relevant rules had been overlooked or misapplied. There seemed to be no opportunity for immediate cross-examination/counter-argument by the other side. One appellant was told that there was no point in proceeding because the weightings could be adjusted to counter-act the effect of a change. (Incidentally, weighted rulings seem to have become an even worse farce).
Charlie Walker said:
The jury found me guilty poor boy and the judge said you're gonna die
And yet they call this justice poor boy then justice let it be
I only killed a man who's just a fixin' to kill me
#18
Posted 2013-October-07, 02:17
Jeremy69A, on 2013-October-04, 08:21, said:
I can't help wondering whether there was an appeals process in place for Miss World for disgruntled competitors who thought the judges had got it wrong....
#19
Posted 2013-October-07, 06:45
nige1, on 2013-October-05, 08:25, said:
But that's not the process, is it?
London UK
#20
Posted 2013-October-07, 07:07