[shevek]

---

MPs, Club game, average standard.
The alert of 2♠ MAY have caught East on the hop. Anyway, apparently he thought for a bit before passing.
N-S called at the end when they conceded -650.
A trump or spade lead shoots 5♥x easily.
North led ♣J, which looks okay to me. The (lucky) winning line is to ruff one club then play trumps.
Confess I don't know whether that happened. No-one could remember.
Perhaps South over-ruffed the fourth club, which would be an error, though not a hopeless play.
West "naturally" quoted the vulnerability and said he didn't notice partner's BIT.
West has a bit of a history of light re-opening actions with this partner.
I gave both sides 4♠/N -1.

Views please.

[RMB1]

Some questions and an opinion

Is there a stop bid procedure? Did East hesitate longer than required by the stop procedure?

Is 5♥ suggested over Pass by the hesitation? [Pass is a logical alternative.]

I don't think the defence is a serious error.

This post has been edited by RMB1: 2013-February-22, 08:34

[shevek]

RMB1, on 2013-February-22, 03:42, said:

Some questions are an opinion

Is there a stop bid procedure? Did East hesitate longer than required by the stop procedure?

Is 5♥ suggested over Pass by the hesitation?

I don't think the defence is a serious error.

No skip bid warnings in Australia

[billw55]

shevek, on 2013-February-22, 06:10, said:

No skip bid warnings in Australia

In that case I would expect an adjustment for west's absurd bid that is obviously suggested by the UI. I think your ruling was right.

Also, depending on west's level, he should get either a brief instructional conversation, a verbal warning, or a pp.

[barmar]

shevek, on 2013-February-22, 06:10, said:

No skip bid warnings in Australia

Are you sure? I see it in section 7.5 of http://www.abf.com.a...urnRegs012.pdf. However, it only seems to apply when bidding boxes are in use, not written or spoken bidding.

More generally, if there's no requirement to use the stop card, does that mean the next player isn't allowed to think more after a skip bid?

[blackshoe]

The laws speak of "normal tempo". Normal tempo after a skip bid is longer than after a simple bid, unless the player has nothing to think about, in which case normal tempo is "instantly".

Bottom line: absent regulation, it's up to the TD to decide whether a particular call was "in tempo". One hopes that TDs put into that position by their NBO or TO will have received guidance on this question.

[ArtK78]

This may be the easiest ruling ever. West's bid is absurd without a break in tempo by East. Obviously, pass is a logical alternative to 5♥.

Agree with Bill on all counts. And, since the NOS did not commit any serious error on defense as far as was presented, the result should be the same for both sides.

Had NS found a winning defense, NS would have been entitled to their plus score.

[blackshoe]

ArtK78, on 2013-February-22, 10:17, said:

West's bid is absurd without a break in tempo by East.

Question: suppose East's call was in tempo (for coming after a skip bid, even with no skip bid regulation in effect) but West thought it was out of tempo. Is West's bid still an infraction?

[ArtK78]

blackshoe, on 2013-February-22, 10:30, said:

Question: suppose East's call was in tempo (for coming after a skip bid, even with no skip bid regulation in effect) but West thought it was out of tempo. Is West's bid still an infraction?

If West thought that East's bid was out of tempo and disclosed that he thought that East's bid was out of tempo, it would be a first in bridge history.

That is an interesting question. There must be UI, such as a break in tempo, for there to be an infraction. If there was no break in tempo (whether West thought there was one or not), there is no infraction and West can do whatever he wants to do for whatever reason that he wants to do it, even if he thought he was taking advantage of phantom UI.

[c_corgi]

RMB1, on 2013-February-22, 03:42, said:

...

Is 5♥ suggested over Pass by the hesitation? [Pass is a logical alternative.]

...

Not remotely. Surely the hesitation suggests that partner is just short of a 2NT or 3-of-a-minor overcall. Neither of these are likely to result in sucess for the 5H bid. The 5H bid is just as barmy with the hesitation as without. Even finding a highly suitable dummy with 3 card support and no wasted values, an awful lot of luck was needed that it didnt turn a trivial plus into a minus score.

[ahydra]

c_corgi, on 2013-February-22, 12:11, said:

Not remotely. Surely the hesitation suggests that partner is just short of a 2NT or 3-of-a-minor overcall. Neither of these are likely to result in sucess for the 5H bid. The 5H bid is just as barmy with the hesitation as without. Even finding a highly suitable dummy with 3 card support and no wasted values, an awful lot of luck was needed that it didnt turn a trivial plus into a minus score.

He could also be just short of a 3H overcall. Also, a 2NT overcall opposite wouldn't be a disaster for West.

Edit: just saw this was a club game. Is it common for people to call for BITs at this club? At my regular clubs (admittedly a fairly low standard) we generally let these kind of things go, and to call the TD for a hesitation would give the impression you're trying to dodge your bad score. (To be honest, I guess there's not much point me mentioning this, since of course NS are fully within their rights to ask for an adjustment if West has used UI.)

ahydra

[c_corgi]

ahydra, on 2013-February-26, 04:54, said:

He could also be just short of a 3H overcall...
ahydra

Even if the UI was partner announcing that he was just short of a natural 3-level overcall I dont think 5H would be suggested over pass. A unlateral action that requires partner's primary suit to match our 5-card suit rather than one of 2 4-card suits is not suggested.

ahydra, on 2013-February-26, 04:54, said:

... Also, a 2NT overcall opposite wouldn't be a disaster for West.
ahydra

KJx spade and a balanced 14 count is not a promising start. Obviously the near 2NT overcall does not have to be that unsuitable (although I suspect that unsuitable would be the norm), but conversely hands which were an easy pass over 2S with nothing to think about could be extremely suitable.

[bluejak]

Would someone like to explain to me why a short pause by East suggests 5♥ over pass? Please be serious.

Since the 5♥ bid is clearly not suggested there is no adjustment. Please let us avoid "If it hesitates, shoot it."

[billw55]

bluejak, on 2013-February-26, 10:25, said:

Would someone like to explain to me why a short pause by East suggests 5♥ over pass? Please be serious.

Since the 5♥ bid is clearly not suggested there is no adjustment. Please let us avoid "If it hesitates, shoot it."

I don't understand. Surely the hesitation suggests east was considering a call, which suggests values, which suggests that west bid anything other than pass. Since 5♥ is included in said anything, it is suggested over pass.

Can you elaborate?

[RMB1]

I think "values" suggests acting (= bidding/doubling), in general; but I do not think "values" suggests bidding a five card suit at the five level.

[billw55]

RMB1, on 2013-March-01, 09:25, said:

I think "values" suggests acting (= bidding/doubling), in general; but I do not think "values" suggests bidding a five card suit at the five level.

Agree. For clarity, I don't think that 5♥ is suggested specifically; only that is suggested over pass, which is obviously an LA. Maybe this is irrelevant in the law though?

[PhilKing]

I like how East did not raise to slam, having shown their values already.