[barsikb]

West:
♠J 2
♥A Q 10
♦A 10 4 2
♣Q J 10 8

Dealer: North

Pass-Pass-1♠-Dbl-Pass-3♥-Pass-?

3♠ to show 3-card support for ♥?

[lalldonn]

Just pass, you have a minimum with three hearts. If you had a better hand with this shape and no spade stopper then 3♠ would be a decent idea.

[wyman]

I'd bid 3S since I rate this hand better than min and we know where all the points are. But lalldonn is (are?) far better than I am, and I even consider the decision incredibly close.

edit: incidentally, we're not bidding 3S to show 3 card heart support. Partner already assumes that. We're bidding 3S to say "I'm not sure what the best game is. Please bid 4H with 5+ hearts, else 3N with spades stopped, else please make the bid you think is best (usually another 4 card suit)."

[Cyberyeti]

What do you think partner has ?

My guess given that he hasn't opened 1 or 2 is that he has a 9-10 count with 5 hearts. What do you do with a 10-11 count with 4 hearts ? Well as a passed hand, I would bid 2♠ but others may disagree. Also what do you think 2N would be by responder ? Surely not natural (you normally strengthen up natural NT responses to a ToX so a hand that would want to bid 2N would open), to me it would probably be 2 places to play so the implication is that partner is flattish.

So do you think you want to be in game opposite say xxx, Kxxxx, Kx, Kxx ? maybe. I think it's quite close and partner's hand might not be that good (Qxx, KJxxx, xxx, Kx is not pretty, you might not make 3).

I think I'd probably pass. Vulnerable at teams I'd think about it harder.

[Vampyr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-24, 09:55, said:

My guess given that he hasn't opened 1 or 2 is that he has a 9-10 count with 5 hearts. What do you do with a 10-11 count with 4 hearts ? Well as a passed hand, I would bid 2♠ but others may disagree.

I disagree; I will bid hearts if I have them. Is it more useful to cuebid with a supermax without 4 hearts? I don't really know.

Quote

Also what do you think 2N would be by responder ? Surely not natural (you normally strengthen up natural NT responses to a ToX so a hand that would want to bid 2N would open), to me it would probably be 2 places to play so the implication is that partner is flattish.

But above you are guessing partner has 5 hearts (in fact in your methods this is what he is showing); he would not be showing 2 places to play with 5 in the unbid major, even with a 4-card suit on the side.

[Cyberyeti]

 Vampyr, on 2013-February-24, 11:19, said:

But above you are guessing partner has 5 hearts (in fact in your methods this is what he is showing); he would not be showing 2 places to play with 5 in the unbid major, even with a 4-card suit on the side.

That comment was meant to be disconnected from the first by the "also", as an "even if you don't believe that ...".

I think by a passed hand, 1♠-X-P-2♠ as a good hand without hearts barely exists and can be covered by 2N in most of the cases. If you play it as 10-11 "no 5 card suit" it tends to work.

[barsikb]

Partner's hand:

♠10 6 5
♥9 8 7 3 2
♦K 9 5
♣A K

[Cyberyeti]

 barsikb, on 2013-February-24, 17:35, said:

Partner's hand:

♠10 6 5
♥9 8 7 3 2
♦K 9 5
♣A K

Even seeing the hand not sure whether I want to be in this, 3 rounds of spades could be really quite awkward, partner's hand is pretty much as expected.

[wyman]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-25, 03:15, said:

Even seeing the hand not sure whether I want to be in this, 3 rounds of spades could be really quite awkward, partner's hand is pretty much as expected.

Same, although i do want to be there because three rounds of spades is far from obviously the start of the defense, and still many things can go right.

[Cyberyeti]

 wyman, on 2013-February-25, 06:44, said:

Same, although i do want to be there because three rounds of spades is far from obviously the start of the defense, and still many things can go right.

Isn't there a big danger spades are 6-2 (no raise) and you're just off at trick 3 on a trump promotion AKQxxx, Kxx, xx, xx or similar on lead and it's a pretty obvious lead.

[wyman]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-25, 06:57, said:

Isn't there a big danger spades are 6-2 (no raise) and you're just off at trick 3 on a trump promotion AKQxxx, Kxx, xx, xx or similar on lead and it's a pretty obvious lead.

Yes. Although even if spades divide 6-2 and opener starts with 3 rounds, there are trump holdings on which you still make, and it's also possible that opener is holding something like AQxxxx and decides to lead from QJ10 of diamonds, and it's also possible that responder passed with 3 spades and a 0-4 count (though I agree 4 is unlikely, but he could have pretty ratty shape, e.g., 3343). This last chance decreases considerably if opps open 1N on most balanced hands with a 5cM though.

It's certainly pushy, and I definitely would rather be in 3 at MP. But, as with all problems, when it comes to "should I bid this game," I assume we're at unfav

[han]

Maybe spades are not 6-2. And if they are, perhaps opener has Kx or KJx of hearts instead of Kxx.

4H looks like a reasonable game.