[eagles123]

My partner has opened a weak 2♥ and I hold the following hand:

♠AQT76
♥Q
♦Q95
♣AQ62

so my logical first step was to try ogust to find out a bit more and I got a positive reply (3♠)
from this I judged my P must have AK of Hearts and therefore 4 Hearts was probably our best place to play, but was it the right bid? I know we don't have a fit but at least I know the Hearts are fairly solid and my p (the weaker hand) has length in them - 3NT is a bit of a gamble!

Cheers,

Eagles

[mgoetze]

Let's say partner does have AKxxxx of hearts and hearts come in for 6 tricks (they could be 3-3, or partner could have the J, or partner could have the T with the J falling doubleton). You need 4 more tricks to make 4♥. You have 1½ in spades and 1½ in clubs, so you just need partner to have one more card, ♣K, ♦K or ♠J. ♦J or ♣J are also likely to give you some play, or indeed both finesses could be on. How likely is partner to have these cards? That depends on his tendencies (and if he is any good, these will in turn be influenced by the vulnerability and position, which is why you should always state these when asking a bidding question). Overall, given a conservative weak 2 style, I think 4♥ is likely to be odds-on.

3NT, on the other hand, rates to be a major disaster due to lack of entries to the dummy.

(If this weren't the N/B forum I would go on to discuss how this hand demonstrates that Ogust is not a very useful convention.)

[Thiros]

We could easily belong in spades. Give partner 3-6-2-2 shape, with ♥A10xxxx, the ♠J, and another king anywhere but hearts, and we want to be in 4♠. Therefore, I would start with a forcing 2♠, and if partner denies support then I suppose I would drive to 4♥. Aggressive to commit to four of a major with this hand, to be sure, but our space for investigation is limited.

The other thing we want to learn about is features. So alternatively, we can give up on 4♠, start with a feature-asking 2NT and go to 4♥ when partner shows interest, and get out in 3♥ otherwise. Usually you want to be in 3NT when you have all the queens, but the communication problems loom large as mgoetze said previously. The opponents will attack in their minor suit, probably diamonds, and during the play we will wither on the vine.

[the hog]

 eagles123, on 2013-January-10, 17:06, said:

My partner has opened a weak 2♥ and I hold the following hand:

♠AQT76
♥Q
♦Q95
♣AQ62

so my logical first step was to try ogust to find out a bit more and I got a positive reply (3♠)
from this I judged my P must have AK of Hearts and therefore 4 Hearts was probably our best place to play, but was it the right bid? I know we don't have a fit but at least I know the Hearts are fairly solid and my p (the weaker hand) has length in them - 3NT is a bit of a gamble!

Cheers,

Eagles

This is a clear pass after a weak 2H opening. You lack the material to make game.

[eagles123]

 the hog, on 2013-January-10, 18:04, said:

This is a clear pass after a weak 2H opening. You lack the material to make game.

seems a bit negative to not even look for game with that hand? If I got a negative reply to my Ogust bid (and yes I know there are better alternative to a 2NT bid but I don't know them) then I just stop at 3H. It's certainly not good enough to force to game but pass? You know better than me just surprised at the idea of passing

[655321]

 eagles123, on 2013-January-10, 18:20, said:

 the hog, on 2013-January-10, 18:04, said:

This is a clear pass after a weak 2H opening. You lack the material to make game.

seems a bit negative to not even look for game with that hand? If I got a negative reply to my Ogust bid (and yes I know there are better alternative to a 2NT bid but I don't know them) then I just stop at 3H. It's certainly not good enough to force to game but pass? You know better than me just surprised at the idea of passing

Eagles you don't mention the vulnerability. Vulnerable you are clearly right, passing a vulnerable weak 2 with this hand is horrible, you have high hopes of game and could just raise to 4♥.

Not vulnerable it might depend a bit on your style, but I would still bid opposite a normal weak 2.

[Cyberyeti]

 the hog, on 2013-January-10, 18:04, said:

This is a clear pass after a weak 2H opening. You lack the material to make game.

Maybe you never open Jxx, AKJxxx, x, Jxx 2♥, I don't, but some people do.

I'd consider bidding 2♠ whether it was forcing or not, as if partner has no spade fit we're less likely to make game.

[RSClyde]

Probably should specify scoring method. At matchpoints I'm passing. I'm probably passing at IMPs as well but it seems harder. Partner "could" have a magic hand, or 2H could be the limit. But then I'd open 2H with
xx
xxxxxx
Axxx
x

[eagles123]

scoring is imps, we're red they're white, partner opened in first seat

hope that answers the questions

[P_Marlowe]

 eagles123, on 2013-January-10, 23:05, said:

scoring is imps, we're red they're white, partner opened in first seat

hope that answers the questions

being red vs. white, should make the weak two sound.

As has Michael calculated you can count 6Hearts + 1 1/2 Spades + 1 1/2 clubs = 9,+???
10 tricks ... it is close.

In my partnership, I would have to bid game, because partner meeds 4 tricks from
me, which I have.
Playing with a stranger, or with a partner, whose preempts are more wide ranging I
would heavily consider Passing it out.

To answer your original question it is usual a good idea to make the long suit of the
weak hand trumps, this means you play hearts, since 3S by passed 3H, you have to bid 4H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mycroft]

2♠ is in standard forcing, and this kind of hand is why. If partner has a spade fit, you might be better in spades; and even if you're better in hearts, you're happier in game if partner has spades (less likely to have three diamond losers, more likely that the outside card is the ♠K, and so on).

Ogust would be fine, but it doesn't tell you what you need to know here, unless your agreements are sound. "Good hand, good suit" - well red on white, what's a "bad suit"? AJTxxx? What's a good suit then? AK? AQJ? Do you know? Are your agreements different if you open white? If not (and I know several for whom it isn't), there basically isn't a hand worth opening a weak 2 at unfavourable that isn't a good suit - and now half of Ogust is useless. What's a good hand? Does it guarantee an outside A or K? Does it just mean we're on the "9 or 10" side of our "6 to 10" (given that we likely have 7 in hearts, that doesn't mean much)?

And you're still not doing well if partner tells you he has a bad suit but a good hand. You still might have game - but that game is going to be 4♠, and there's no way to find out about it now.

I like Ogust myself (because I tend to play much more wide-ranging weak 2s than many), but this hand is more likely to get the information it needs from a forcing 2♠ call.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, a reasonable thing to add to your arsenal is something I can "Majorgust." But, it is really not that tricky.

The idea is simple.


If Opener has three cards in Responder's major, he bids 2NT or three of the major, one being minimum and the other maximum (you decide).
If not, Opener rebids his suit with a minimum or bids a feature with a maximum. Call this actually Featuregust?

You could tweak this to:

2♥-2♠-?

2NT = 3 spades, minimum
3♠ = 3 spades, maximum
3♣ = 0-2 spades, good hand (3♦ asks whether good or bad suit; 3♥ bad, 3♠ good)
3♦ = 0-2 spades, bad hand bad suit
3♥ = 0-2 spades, bad hand good suit

[blackshoe]

Andersen and Zenkel proposed the following agreements after partner bids a new suit over a weak 2:

Raise with 3 card support or honor doubleton.
rebid your suit, suggesting a minimum
bid a new suit to show a high card feature
jump in a new suit to show support for responder's suit and a shortage in the suit bid.

[mgoetze]

I think about half the people who replied to this thread should be permanently banned from the N/B forum.

[akwoo]

First of all, the 3♠ response to Ogust should show a 7 loser hand. A hand with AKxxxx of hearts and nothing else is an 8 loser hand (1 loser in hearts, and 7 losers in the other suits), so partner must be better than that. On the other hand, partner probably would have opened 1♥ with a side ace, so partner has at most a side king, or possibly 2-3 jacks (though technically with no side king, partner has 8 losers, since you have all the queens).

If the hearts split, chances are pretty good 3N and 4H make the same number of tricks.

If the hearts do not split 3-3, you probably cannot get to the hearts at 3N - partner only has one side entry and you need 2 unless partner has the J (which is unlikely since partner will open 1♥ with a side king and the jack of hearts), so 3N will go down. But 4H still has a chance; a black finesse could work, or you could set up the 5th spade.

At IMPs, 4H is clearly the right contract. (The 10 points for being in NT are worth nothing.)

At MPs, 4H is also right, but 3N will actually score better about 35% of the time (when both make the same number of tricks - which is when hearts split 3-3 and opponents don't break your diamonds immediately). This means 4H is usually right, but you could try 3N if you are in a swinging situation.