[eagles123]

After a weak 1NT opening from my p (12-14 points) I held the following hand:

♠KQT2
♥Q9876
♦KJ62
♣ -

I wasn't really sure how to bid it to show the 5/4 shape in hearts and spades...
if I do start with 2 diamond - 2 heart transfer then consider my next bid:

- 2 spades - is this non forcing if my p has 4 spades and 2 hearts and a minimum hand? I certainly don't want to stop below game with my hand
- 3 spades - is this a cue bid in spades rather than showing shape? it probably is a very simple answer that 3 spades is the right re-bid and I was otherthinking it lol

I considered using stayman to start but then what if P shows no 4 card major then what lol

In the end i just transfered and then bid 4 hearts... which made easily... but I think possibly more through luck than judgement

any advice welcomed

[Antrax]

With a game forcing hand, we want to be in 3NT if partner has no support for either major, and 4M otherwise.
One way of solving this is agreeing that after stayman and 2♦ response, bidding a major on the 3-level shows five cards (no point in showing less, since you know you can't have a 4-4 fit) with strength to force game. Opener raises to 4 with support or bids 3NT with no support.
The problem with this method is now responder will declare the hand if a fit is found. So, you can play that after 2♣-2♦, bidding a major on the 3-level shows five cards in the OTHER major, and opening can bid 3NT with no support and 4M with support, declaring the hand in both cases. This reversal is called the "Smolen" convention.
[edit]
Which is good and well but now I see you're playing 12-14 NT. I'll let others answer how to handle invitational 5-4 hands.

[Cyberyeti]

Normally 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ is forcing and what I would do on this hand.

1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ in very old style is invitational with 5♥/4♠.

I might well bid this way, do you really want to be in 4♥ or 3N opposite AJx, xxx, xxx, AKJx ? (and there are worse hands than that)

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-December-27, 06:13, said:

Normally 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ is forcing and what I would do on this hand.

1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ in very old style is invitational with 5♥/4♠.

I might well bid this way, do you really want to be in 4♥ or 3N opposite AJx, xxx, xxx, AKJx ? (and there are worse hands than that)

bit in bold - didn't realise that was forcing, thought it was invitational and could be passed with minimum hand and spade preference?

As for do I want to be in game, maybe not if 1NT is totally minimum but I do have a very nice hand with both majors and a void so surely most times game is on?

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2012-December-27, 06:22, said:

bit in bold - didn't realise that was forcing, thought it was invitational and could be passed with minimum hand and spade preference?

As for do I want to be in game, maybe not if 1NT is totally minimum but I do have a very nice hand with both majors and a void so surely most times game is on?

Well you want to be in game if partner has any sort of fit, but if partner has too much wasted in the club suit it will not play well even if the clubs are fast tricks.

Partner will think Axx, xx(x), xx(x), AKQxx is a superb weak no trump, but you can't make anything unless cards are very well placed.

He might equally have Axx, KJx, AQxx, xxx where 6♦ is decent not that you'll get there.

I think 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ is forcing for almost everybody but not GF. Since you're committed to 3♥/2N if partner has no spade fit, you might as well commit to 3♠ if you have a spade fit.

Most commonly with a weak NT if you have a hand that's not quite that good, you bid 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥ to show the 4-5 NF with the option of raising 2M to 3 if partner shows a 4 card major as his stayman response.

[eagles123]

Quote

I think 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ is forcing for almost everybody but not GF. Since you're committed to 3♥/2N if partner has no spade fit, you might as well commit to 3♠ if you have a spade fit.

Makes sense now thanks

[Zelandakh]

1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ is certainly not forcing for everyone. If I saw this sequence in the MBC then I would expect it to be showing an invitational hand with 5-5 majors. With an invitational hand and 5-4 majors I would expect to see Stayman followed by bidding 2 of the longer major; with a game forcing hand and 5-4 majors I would expect Stayman followed by bidding 3 of the longer major. There are many other possibilities around (such as Antrax's Smolen) but for these you will need agreements with your partner. In an Acol context, the traditional (circa 1970) solution was to play 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣ as artificial with at least 5-4 in the majors and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3 of a major as 5-4 invitational. Sadly, there is essentially no standard for Acol after a 1NT opening these days (that I know of) so you basically have to guess. The official EBU Modern Acol system does not even have a way of showing 5-4 majors and an invite!

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-03, 04:01, said:

1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ is certainly not forcing for everyone. If I saw this sequence in the MBC then I would expect it to be showing an invitational hand with 5-5 majors. With an invitational hand and 5-4 majors I would expect to see Stayman followed by bidding 2 of the longer major; with a game forcing hand and 5-4 majors I would expect Stayman followed by bidding 3 of the longer major. There are many other possibilities around (such as Antrax's Smolen) but for these you will need agreements with your partner. In an Acol context, the traditional (circa 1970) solution was to play 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣ as artificial with at least 5-4 in the majors and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3 of a major as 5-4 invitational. Sadly, there is essentially no standard for Acol after a 1NT opening these days (that I know of) so you basically have to guess. The official EBU Modern Acol system does not even have a way of showing 5-4 majors and an invite!

You quoted the foundation version for complete beginners with WTOs.

Quote

5 hearts, 4 spades, at least 11 HCP. Forcing to at least 2NT.
Opener chooses to play in hearts, spades or no trumps and whether to
bid game

is what's given for 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ in the "modern acol" version which is closer to what most club players actually play.

[helene_t]

Whether you start with stayman and then bid 3♥, or start with a transfer and then bid 2♠, you apparently can't be sure if partner will take it as forcing or not. It makes most sense to play
1NT-2♦
2♥-2♠
as invitational, and
1NT-2♣
2♦-3♥
as forcing, since the stayman auction allows you to stay lower. But some play it the other way.

Anyway, with this hand it is not really clear if you want to force to game or not so it probably doesn't matter. Just chose one or the other and then make an agreement with partner after the sesion.

[Zelandakh]

Hmmm, you are right but the correct link seems to have moved or something because I cannot see it any more. Has the EBU taken it down? It would be nice to provide the link to the full system here too.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-03, 05:54, said:

Hmmm, you are right but the correct link seems to have moved or something because I cannot see it any more. Has the EBU taken it down? It would be nice to provide the link to the full system here too.

They've reorganised it into one file, the modern card is below the foundation one from page 26 ish.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2013-January-03, 05:53, said:

Whether you start with stayman and then bid 3♥, or start with a transfer and then bid 2♠, you apparently can't be sure if partner will take it as forcing or not. It makes most sense to play
1NT-2♦
2♥-2♠
as invitational, and
1NT-2♣
2♦-3♥
as forcing, since the stayman auction allows you to stay lower. But some play it the other way.

Anyway, with this hand it is not really clear if you want to force to game or not so it probably doesn't matter. Just chose one or the other and then make an agreement with partner after the sesion.

I think most weak no trumpers play the transfer sequence as F1 as it allows you more space when you have ambition beyond game and can cover the inv and GF hands provided you're happy to be at the 3 level. If not, stayman and raise if partner has 4M.

It also allows you to use 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥/♠ as something else entirely unrelated to majors as we do.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-03, 06:10, said:

They've reorganised it into one file, the modern card is below the foundation one from page 26 ish.

Haha! Got it. Thanks for that. It is a little confusing though. It says that 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ is 5 hearts, 4 spades INV+ and yet all of the GF hands are covered by alternatives, so it should really be an invite and non-forcing.

Anyway, it is not particularly suitable for N/B but I have always liked using 2NT as the end-stop for these invitational hands. When I used ordinary Stayman I played 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT as 5 hearts, 4 spades, INV and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT as 5 spades, 4 hearts, INV. I still use the former but since switching to Puppet I play the latter sequence as 4-4 majors and INV; then the direct 1NT - 2NT is 5 spades, 4 hearts and INV.

What all of these schemes lack is bids which say "I have an invitational hand if you have a fit but no game interest otherwise." This is an area that should probably have a little more theory/interest devoted to it than there currently is.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-03, 07:19, said:

What all of these schemes lack is bids which say "I have an invitational hand if you have a fit but no game interest otherwise." This is an area that should probably have a little more theory/interest devoted to it than there currently is.

That's 1N-2♣-2M-3M where you bid 1N-2♣-2♦-2M if partner doesn't have 4M. If you're interested enough that 3 opposite your 5 is enough then you transfer first.