[Phil]

District Final of your North American Pairs

r/w RHO opens 1♦

KJTxxx K6xx AQ A.

[semeai]

Phil, on 2012-September-10, 08:37, said:

District Final of your North American Pairs

r/w RHO opens 1♦

KJTxxx K6xx AQ A.

Good enough for a double, especially with the tenaces. Having four hearts is nice too, but I'd still double with, say, the roundeds swapped.

[aguahombre]

1♠

[inquiry]

1♠ for me.

[phil_20686]

1S. Seems like a non problem so far.

[billw55]

phil_20686, on 2012-September-10, 09:52, said:

1S. Seems like a non problem so far.

The problem is partner passing it out with say, Qx QJx xxxx xxxx. Or xx Axxx Kxx xxx. Or something else that offers good play for game.

Or at least, that's what I thought the problem was, but maybe it's not after all.

[Phil]

billw55, on 2012-September-10, 12:33, said:

Or at least, that's what I thought the problem was, but maybe it's not after all.

Are you suggesting when someone posts a problem on here that we have to look beyond obvious answers and examine the non-obvious ones that might have worked on a particular occasion?

[billw55]

Phil, on 2012-September-10, 12:42, said:

Are you suggesting when someone posts a problem on here that we have to look beyond obvious answers and examine the non-obvious ones that might have worked on a particular occasion?

lol you're giving me too much credit. I only meant that my own decision was double and pull, but some ostensibly strong players chose the simple overcall instead.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2012-September-10, 12:42, said:

Are you suggesting when someone posts a problem on here that we have to look beyond obvious answers and examine the non-obvious ones that might have worked on a particular occasion?

I don't know what he is suggesting. But, in choosing between two seemingly obvious answers I think we need to look beyond them to their consequences.

I chose 1S, rather than double because of what might happen next. If I double and then get another opportunity, a spade bid is not likely to show my sixth spade ---and I don't believe the hand is strong enough to double and then jump in spades if partner hasn't shown spades. So, 1S directly becomes the default call.

Bill's choice is based on a magic passout of 1S, where we have game. I don't know which "plan-ahead" choice is more likely to work out best. But it would seem difficult to get to the right strain and level when pard only has 2 as in Bill's two examples after a double, unless I overbid and jump spades next.

[neilkaz]

For me this, while minimum, is good enough to X and then bid 2♠ over a possible 2♣ and noting that I have a goodish 6 card suit and that overcalling 1♠ could lose a 4-4 ♥ fit.

EDIT: I still like X then 2♠ here and have no trouble constructing hands where many partners will pass a simple overcall but we can make game.

[gszes]

the only times 1s will work out better than x seems to be when u can make only 1s. This consideration
is so tiny as to not matter. There is tremendous potential here especially behind opener and a 1s bid will
cause us to forfeit a huge number of game contracts where p has minimal values and has to pass.
x for me followed by a raise of hearts or bidding spades at lowest level. There really just not that many hands
where making a simple overcall with 16-17 is reasonable because the potential (most especially behind opener)
is generally too great.

[quiddity]

X

[phil_20686]

gszes, on 2012-September-10, 14:09, said:

the only times 1s will work out better than x seems to be when u can make only 1s. This consideration
is so tiny as to not matter. There is tremendous potential here especially behind opener and a 1s bid will
cause us to forfeit a huge number of game contracts where p has minimal values and has to pass.
x for me followed by a raise of hearts or bidding spades at lowest level. There really just not that many hands
where making a simple overcall with 16-17 is reasonable because the potential (most especially behind opener)
is generally too great.

This is wrong. You lose when
(1) Partner bids too much after double and bid, and you go off in game.
(2) You lose when the loss of definition in double and bid causes you to miss game, as partner will pass with slightly stronger hands, due to the risk of going off in 3M rather than making 2M.
(3) You lose when the loss of definition makes it unsafe for partner to make a slam try, as he is worried about the weaker hands you might lose.

Also, the argument that dble brings in the heart suit is largely spurious, suppose, for example, that you dble and lho bids 3d, and this comes back to you, so you bid 3S. But now you have not shown your hearts, and partner with a stiff spade and some hearts will likely pass, rather than risk playing in a non heart fit at the four level. If you bid one spade and then double 3d you have certainly shown hearts.

I cannot remember the last time that I lost imps due to being passed out at the one level. People worries about it, but it never happens.

[the hog]

1S. No problem so far.

[rogerclee]

I always double on these kinds of hands, I would care less about whether you bid 1S or x and more about just having an agreement with my partner.

[MrAce]

Double for me

1-I have no rebid problem when i start double

2-I have no concerns of pd passing this dbl since i have AQ of ♦

3-Heart suit can be burn easily after 1♠ overcall. We dont really need much to make game when he has 5 or 6 hearts.

Make my heart suit 3 card or less and i am up for 1♠. Unless we are we playing DBL and then new suit almost a 2♣ opener.

[billw55]

phil_20686, on 2012-September-10, 17:25, said:

This is wrong. You lose when
(1) Partner bids too much after double and bid, and you go off in game.
(2) You lose when the loss of definition in double and bid causes you to miss game, as partner will pass with slightly stronger hands, due to the risk of going off in 3M rather than making 2M.
(3) You lose when the loss of definition makes it unsafe for partner to make a slam try, as he is worried about the weaker hands you might lose.

Also, the argument that dble brings in the heart suit is largely spurious, suppose, for example, that you dble and lho bids 3d, and this comes back to you, so you bid 3S. But now you have not shown your hearts, and partner with a stiff spade and some hearts will likely pass, rather than risk playing in a non heart fit at the four level. If you bid one spade and then double 3d you have certainly shown hearts.

I cannot remember the last time that I lost imps due to being passed out at the one level. People worries about it, but it never happens.

Some of this is true. But also remember, there are other sequences to show super strong hands: double and cuebid, double and jump. Partner can infer a fuzzy maximum based on my failure to do this.

Your bit about losing hearts being spurious makes the least sense of everything you said. After1♦-x-3♦, partner can sometimes bid 3♥.

[phil_20686]

billw55, on 2012-September-11, 06:37, said:

Some of this is true. But also remember, there are other sequences to show super strong hands: double and cuebid, double and jump. Partner can infer a fuzzy maximum based on my failure to do this.

Your bit about losing hearts being spurious makes the least sense of everything you said. After1♦-x-3♦, partner can sometimes bid 3♥.

If partner is strong enough for that your sequence is probably irrelevant, as you will have the balance of the points, or partner will have heart length etc. If he is strong enough to bid after a t/o double at the three level, he is not passing out 1S, and since I will be taking another bid we will always find our fit. Its when I double and he passes over 3d that we have difficulty: Partner has xx Axxx KJxx xxx, after 1d x 3d p p 3S p you are surely bidding spades rather than trying to introduce hearts. After 1d 1s 3d p p x p you will surely bid 4 hearts.

[dkham]

I'm delighted to double.

We've an agreement that doubling then bidding a new suit shows about 16-18, and I'm happy enough with the quality of the spades to rebid them next time, even at the three level.

[Phil]

I also posted this on Bridgewinners.

At the table, I decided to double. The opponents stay silent for the duration.

Partner bids 1♥. Now what?