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What are your methods?

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:21

Partner opens a 15-17 nt. What are your methods with a game forcing, single suit minor?

AJ4 5 A107 KJ10964
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:33

Transfer to clubs and then 3, showing a short suit.
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#3 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:39

In different partnerships I have:

2 as a transfer to clubs

2 as a size ask or clubs, bidding at the 3 level would clarify my slam intentions in clubs

2 stayman followed by 3 (this one is ambiguous as to whether I have a 6+ card club suit, or a 4 card major and 5+ clubs)

I also have in most partnerships a way of showing 3-1 in the majors, usually with 5/4 in the minors, but occasionally with 6/3. If my other methods of bidding are not ideal, this may at least ask partner the question I want to know, how much wastage do you have in hearts. With your actual hand, that would be the way I'd go, I wouldn't insist on slam unless partner bid 4 in response, which I play as still having an opening NT in working HCP opposite a known heart stiff.
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:45

First, we would have to judge whether that hand at that moment should be treated as a slam try. If we did, then we have the Walsh Relay available. If not, we would probably try our 3C puppet toy and probe for 3NT, 4S, or 5C.

I don't know if 4-suit xfer style can do everything ---uncover magic slam, find good spade game, and/or get to NT at a decent level; since I don't use 4-suit xfers. So, am not starting a debate on which methods are better...merely giving my answer to those who have our methods.
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#5 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:46

1NT-3 shows at least 9 cards in the minor and sing or void in hearts (and a GF hand). If partner bids 3NT he's got good stoppers, otherwise s/he bids something else. However if partner doesn't have wastage in hearts we probably belong to 6...

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

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#6 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 09:59

We have very simple methods: slam try (3m, promises 5+ cards) or bid 3NT/5C directly. :P (I think this is based around the principle that messing around before going to game must imply some slam interest, else why bother?)

Other methods I've played are transfer-to-3m followed by 3NT = slam try in the minor, or 3m = "miniwood" (possibly?) showing a source of tricks inviting 3NT if partner has the other suits stopped (this one isn't so much a GF, I guess).

I'm interested in systems where e.g. 3H shows short hearts with slam interest, but I figure this can't come up very often?

ahydra
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#7 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 10:00

As helene-t. 4 from opener would admit slam suitability and let responder initiate kickback.
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#8 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 11:19

View Postahydra, on 2012-September-27, 09:59, said:

We have very simple methods: slam try (3m, promises 5+ cards) or bid 3NT/5C directly. :P (I think this is based around the principle that messing around before going to game must imply some slam interest, else why bother?)

Other methods I've played are transfer-to-3m followed by 3NT = slam try in the minor, or 3m = "miniwood" (possibly?) showing a source of tricks inviting 3NT if partner has the other suits stopped (this one isn't so much a GF, I guess).

I'm interested in systems where e.g. 3H shows short hearts with slam interest, but I figure this can't come up very often?

ahydra


For me its not a matter of pure frequency as it is the fact that these are problem hands without some systemic treatment, and that they are not terribly infrequent. I dislike wasting 3H/3S bids on 5-5 forcing or 5-5 invitational hands because I think those can be handled adequately with other methods while also being relatively infrequent. On the other hand, shortage showing (Game forcing, not necessarily slam interest) can keep you out of bad 3N, steer you to an appropriate Moysian, or steer you to a minor suit game/slam depending on wastage.

Typically people have to decide whether 4m is forcing or non-forcing. I've decided forcing in my partnerships in general. They also have to decide on follow-ups. My general follow-up structure includes that a cue of shortness by opener shows that I still have our NT range in non-wasted values.
Chris Gibson
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#9 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 11:37

I play a rather unsophisticated method currently that does not include 4s xfers. 2 is minor suit stayman, 100% game force (pard will bid 2nt without a 4 card minor) and after that whatever # of clubs you have to bid demands a cue.

3nt would deny the A here and 4nt would be to play by either player at anytime. Blackwood is out the window.
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#10 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 11:55

Would Walsh relay and show a "good" suit (I now consider KJT a minimum).
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 12:13

View PostPhil, on 2012-September-27, 11:55, said:

Would Walsh relay and show a "good" suit (I now consider KJT a minimum).

Walsh relays use the eventual 3m to show a broken suit (thus more outside goodies and less concern about wrong-siding), and 3M to show the corresponding good suit (3h=clubs, 3S=diamonds).

This is all after knocking off the normal meaning of the 2 transfer.

Edit: oops, I misread your post as a question..sorry. But I believe it is more common to describe KJ as broken and needing fillers.
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#12 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 12:58

View Postjillybean, on 2012-September-27, 09:21, said:

Partner opens a 15-17 nt. What are your methods with a game forcing, single suit minor?

AJ4 5 A107 KJ10964

Jilly...back in March you posted that you had added MSS ( Minor Suit Stayman ) to your card .
[ That means NO 4-suit transfers ].

So, one way for Responder to show a long suit, slammish is:

1NT - 2NT! ( puppets to 3C )
??
.. pass = weak, long
.. 3D = slammish, long
.. 3H/3S = Advance cue, slammish long

But that gives up the ability to show the 4 4 4 1 hands :
.. 3D = 4 4 1 4
.. 3H = 4 1 4 4
.. 3S = 1 4 4 4
.. 3NT = 4 4 4 1

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Another way is to give up the standard minor invitational sequences and use them as long minor, slammish:
1NT - 3C/3D
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Another way to bid 2S is the Walsh Relay . So, the direct route 1NT - 2S is MSS and the Walsh ( delayed ) route is :
1NT - 2D! ( ostensibly transfer to )
2H - 2S! ( cancels out - transfer; have long minor, slammish )
??
[ I'm only guessing as to the follow-ups below ] :
.. 2NT = accept
.. 3C! = accept
.. 3H/3S = advance cue accepting either ( something like 3-3 in the minors )
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#13 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 13:15

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-September-27, 12:58, said:


Another way to bid is the Walsh Relay ( so the direct route 1NT - 2S is MSS and the Walsh ( delayed ) route is :
1NT - 2D! ( ostensibly transfer to )
2H - 2S! ( cancels out - transfer; have long minor, slammish )
??
[ I'm only guessing as to the follow-ups below ] :
.. 2NT = accept
.. 3C! = accept
.. 3H/3S = advance cue accepting either ( something like 3-3 in the minors )

I haven't studied your guesses as to the follow-ups to figure out if they are workable. But, the one we use is simpler..and less revealing about the opening NT bidder's hand. Opener is the Captain.

1N-2D
2H-2S (WR)
2N is forced and gets out of responder's way, so she can describe the nature of her minor suit slam try...broken or good suit/clubs or diamonds.

In the case of an annoying super accept of hearts (2S being the only allowed super-accept):
1N-2D
2S!----responder must bid 2N to affirm a real transfer to hearts, and if she had a Walsh Relay minor-suit slam try she launches it directly over 2S with the appropriate 3-level bid.
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#14 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 14:45

What helene suggests is simple and effective. Play four way transfers and transfer to a minor and then bid a suit at the 3 level as showing a shortage. With four way transfers partner will complete with Hxx or better, and underbreak with worse (or vice versa), so on weak hands you can decide whether or not to look for 5m after you have a good idea of where the clubs lie. When it looks like they are solid in a weak hand, e.g. Axx x xxx KQJxxx, it is usually right to subsist in 3N.
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#15 User is offline   Thiros 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 16:21

I would start with 2 and follow up with 3. Crude, to be sure, and I would do the same thing with 4-5 in a major and clubs, but it works well enough often enough.

What I do after bidding 3 will depend on what partner's response was to 2. If we're playing matchpoints, I will end up basically giving our partnership the choice of playing this hand in 3NT or 6.
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#16 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-September-27, 17:22

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-September-27, 12:58, said:

Jilly...back in March you posted that you had added MSS ( Minor Suit Stayman ) to your card .
[ That means NO 4-suit transfers ].


I don't think what we have is standard "MSS", what we play is..

1N 2S = weak hand with diamonds, 55m weak or 44m slam interest
1N 2N = weak hand with clubs or 4441

1N 3D = slam, one minor

[ducks]
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And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#17 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 03:30

I am a simple soul - with long clubs and slam interest I respond 3. Now Opener can show/deny a good hand for slam and we can use control bids at the 3 level before (probably) asking for key cards. Sometimes the older, traditional ways still have some merit.
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#18 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 04:04

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-September-27, 12:58, said:

Jilly...back in March you posted that you had added MSS ( Minor Suit Stayman ) to your card .
[ That means NO 4-suit transfers ].

Surely you could play both.
2 = MSS
2NT = transfer to clubs
3 = transfer to diamonds.
This allows you to transfer when you have a 6 card suit, typically, and use 2 if you are considering slam with a shorter suit that needs a fit with partner.

If you wanted a NT game invitation, this would have to be via 2, so I would not recommend it in those circumstances. But opposite a 2 point NT range ...
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#19 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 10:20

View Postjillybean, on 2012-September-27, 09:21, said:

Partner opens a 15-17 nt. What are your methods with a game forcing, single suit minor?

AJ4 5 A107 KJ10964

1NT-2S
2NT/3C-3H

2S=transfer C weak or strong OR invite with D
2NT=accept invite C; 3C=min for C
3H=singleton, slam interest
I pass if partner bids 3NT now.
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#20 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-September-28, 10:38

KISS


2c then 3c.
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