[han]

In each of these auctions partner bids 5H. Are we forced to bid slam if we have a control in their suit?

Auction 1.

(3C) - Dbl - (p) - 5H

Auction 2.

(2D) - p - (p) - Dbl
(p) - 4H - (p) - 5H

Auction 3.

1H - (1S) - 2S - (3S)
4H - (p) - 5H

[gnasher]

Only in auction 3.

In 1, there's no convenient way to set hearts and initiate cue-bidding, so this is just a slam-try without control. In 2, new suits would be natural, so the same applies.

In 3, we have cue-bids available, so it's OK to play the direct raise as specific.

[rhm]

han, on 2012-September-04, 00:04, said:

In each of these auctions partner bids 5H. Are we forced to bid slam if we have a control in their suit?

Auction 1.

(3C) - Dbl - (p) - 5H

Auction 2.

(2D) - p - (p) - Dbl
(p) - 4H - (p) - 5H

Auction 3.

1H - (1S) - 2S - (3S)
4H - (p) - 5H

In my opinion auction 1 is different.
Over a preempt I can not afford the luxury that five of a major asks a specific question.
I need it as a general slam try for hands which want to invite slam.

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

I think auction 1 is just a one-suited slam try - it doesn't show nor deny a club control. What is your plan with 3532 and slam interest? 3532 and a slam force? 4522 and a slam try? You will cuebid, and after the cuebid there already isn't enough room to distinguish all these before you throw-in one-suited hands with a club control.
(That's the price you pay for COG cuebids. At least here, I probably don't need to convince anyone that 4♣ doesn't promise slam interest.)

(I see I wrote a long paragraph stating "Agree with rhm.")

Auction 2 is a slam try without a diamond control, and auction 3 a slam force without a spade control.
In addition to Andy's points, opener's range in hand 3 is narrower than advancer's range in hand 2. Here I mean "range" in the sense of standard deviation - of course, opener could still have a fairly big hand in auction 3, but he will usually be around his minimum when responder has a slam try.

[Fluffy]

for passing this type of bid either 5♥ bidder must be limited, or maybe partner gotta be very wide ranged. Only the first auction seems to meet this, but its close. I recall my dad passing this type of bid once, and also bidding only 6 with void. Both times succesfully (I gotta be an overbidder )

[han]

Does anybody play in auction 3 that 5H is the invite without a spade control, and that you bid 5C (cue, denying spade cue) with the slam force missing a spade control?

[Fluffy]

I've seen auction 3 being played for trump quality, makes sense onl when a void is around, on a minor in this auction

[billw55]

cherdano, on 2012-September-04, 02:58, said:

I think auction 1 is just a one-suited slam try - it doesn't show nor deny a club control.

I am curious then. Advancer may make a slam try with xx in opener's suit, and doubler may also accept said try with xx and an otherwise strong hand? Doesn't somebody need a control?

[cherdano]

han, on 2012-September-04, 03:56, said:

Does anybody play in auction 3 that 5H is the invite without a spade control, and that you bid 5C (cue, denying spade cue) with the slam force missing a spade control?

That seems non-standard and clearly inferior. If you want to force to slam opposite a spade control, you don't need any space. If you want to invite to slam without a spade control, you may need space.

[gnasher]

billw55, on 2012-September-04, 06:38, said:

I am curious then. Advancer may make a slam try with xx in opener's suit, and doubler may also accept said try with xx and an otherwise strong hand? Doesn't somebody need a control?

We need to have the wherewithal for twelve tricks too.

[rhm]

billw55, on 2012-September-04, 06:38, said:

I am curious then. Advancer may make a slam try with xx in opener's suit, and doubler may also accept said try with xx and an otherwise strong hand? Doesn't somebody need a control?

Partner doubles a preempt.
You have a small doubleton in preemptors suit.
In spite of this negative feature you are too strong to jump to game.
So you invite with bidding above game in spite of two losers in preemptors suit. You still consider the five level reasonably safe, should partner pass, do you?

Your partner doubled and is looking at 2 losers in preemptors suit.
And in spite of your strong hand he still has enough extras to accept?

I guess one can construct such a layout, but it is not very likely to occur more than once every second leap year.

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

I think that the jump to 5M denies a control in their suit, with a control you bid 4C first and then bid 5M.

[Phil]

Surprised at the poll title. I think the main difference among these auctions is what they ask for. None of them are "forcing".

Reading more carefully, I agree with Cherdano.

[han]

Do you actually mean you agree with what cherdano wrote? Playing that 5H does not deny a control in the first auction is very strange to me.