Help
Hi,
does anybody have any information on a possible score adjustment?
Open round 5: NZL v USA, board 11, Ware/Tislevoll - Rodwell/Meckstroth
The vugraph archive has Michael (Ware) near the end of apparently making 4S, then an announcement of:
vugraphzbh: declarer renounce .(
vugraphzbh: 1 down rectified by director
Does anybody know what happened here?
Thanks a lot
Gerry
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Does anybody know? Board adjustment RR5 Open NZvUSA
#1
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Posted 2012-August-11, 21:20
#2
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Posted 2012-August-12, 03:43
I wasn't watching, but it might help to know that 'renounce' means 'revoke'.
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Posted 2012-August-12, 07:55
FrancesHinden, on 2012-August-12, 03:43, said:
I wasn't watching, but it might help to know that 'renounce' means 'revoke'.
It does? I'd ask "since when", but the answer appears to be "since the vugraph operator who said it isn't a native English speaker". Or maybe it was a typo. <shrug>
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#4
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Posted 2012-August-12, 10:35
I've seen it sometimes, along with renege. Mainly from non-English speakers.
#5
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Posted 2012-August-12, 14:48
I believe that "renoncer" is French for "revoke". For example, Law 62 in the French version of the Laws is headed "Correction d'une renonce".
"Renege" is, or was, used in English as a alternative to "revoke".
"Renege" is, or was, used in English as a alternative to "revoke".
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#6
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Posted 2012-August-12, 16:00
I think "renege" comes from other card games, and perhaps older versions of bridge, or whist. I think it's been out of the bridge lexicon (or at least the laws) for a long time. As for "renoncer," you're probably right, although my dictionary does say that "revoke" comes from Old French "revoquer" so there was a closer French equivalent than renoncer at one time, anyway. Anyway, no big deal. 
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#7
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Posted 2012-August-12, 16:12
Ah, thanks.
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Posted 2012-August-12, 18:46
Renege is common in Australia.
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#9
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Posted 2012-August-12, 18:57
Renege is pretty common in USA* too. Not as common as revoke but maybe 20 %? Not surprised when I hear either
*- obv usa is a big place, possibly only that common in the areas of USA that I have lived, but I've lived in most major "areas".
*- obv usa is a big place, possibly only that common in the areas of USA that I have lived, but I've lived in most major "areas".
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#10
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Posted 2012-August-12, 22:02
As several others have said, renege is commonly used as a synonym for a revoke in bridge, and renounce somewhat less commonly (but I have seen it, in a few old books.)
In some other card games, there is a technical distinction to be made between situations where you are allowed to play a card of any suit and situations where you must follow if able.
David Parlett's History of Card Games observes this distinction:
A renounce is any failure to follow suit; A renege is a legal failure to follow suit when able; a revoke is an illegal failure to follow suit when able.
There aren't many games still played today -- 2-hand pinochle is the only one I have played -- where the distinction still matters. In bridge of course all failures to follow suit are illegal, so the shades of meaning are ignored, and all the words relating to failing to follow get used interchangeably.
In some other card games, there is a technical distinction to be made between situations where you are allowed to play a card of any suit and situations where you must follow if able.
David Parlett's History of Card Games observes this distinction:
A renounce is any failure to follow suit; A renege is a legal failure to follow suit when able; a revoke is an illegal failure to follow suit when able.
There aren't many games still played today -- 2-hand pinochle is the only one I have played -- where the distinction still matters. In bridge of course all failures to follow suit are illegal, so the shades of meaning are ignored, and all the words relating to failing to follow get used interchangeably.
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Posted 2012-August-13, 06:27
JLOGIC, on 2012-August-12, 18:57, said:
Renege is pretty common in USA* too. Not as common as revoke but maybe 20 %? Not surprised when I hear either
*- obv usa is a big place, possibly only that common in the areas of USA that I have lived, but I've lived in most major "areas".
*- obv usa is a big place, possibly only that common in the areas of USA that I have lived, but I've lived in most major "areas".
I grew up in the upper Midwest (Illinois) and my family played a lot of euchre. They only used the word renege to indicate not following suit when you could. I never heard the word revoke used in this sense until starting to play bridge in college.
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Posted 2012-August-13, 07:20
Heh. The things I learn playing this game. 
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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Posted 2012-August-13, 22:29
Siegmund, on 2012-August-12, 22:02, said:
In bridge of course all failures to follow suit are illegal, so the shades of meaning are ignored, and all the words relating to failing to follow get used interchangeably.
I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that discarding when I have no cards of the suit led is illegal!
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Posted 2012-August-14, 07:35
Quartic, on 2012-August-13, 22:29, said:
I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that discarding when I have no cards of the suit led is illegal!
Notice that in the definitions he gave, they were both qualified by "when able". I thought it was obvious that his later statement was intended in this context, since he was just talking about the distinction between renege versus revoke.
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Posted 2012-August-14, 11:50
barmar, on 2012-August-14, 07:35, said:
Notice that in the definitions he gave, they were both qualified by "when able". I thought it was obvious that his later statement was intended in this context, since he was just talking about the distinction between renege versus revoke.
He gave three definitions, which made what he said technically ambiguous. Of course I knew what he meant!
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