[MrAce]

---

Team game, wc pd and opps, playing 2/1 system.

* 1♠ did not promise unbalanced hand

* 2♣ was XYZ (puppet to 2♦ either will pass or make an invitation bid)

* 2♥ (unknown to you since all you discussed was XYZ and not the subsequent bids, just before a BBO match) All you know is pd knows he was supposed to bid 2♦ (some people play XYZ without 2♦ being forced, just to keep it simple 2 cl inv nmf and 2 dia gf nmf, so pd is not one of them)

[cherdano]

Partner is showing 4351 with extras.

Even AKxx Axx KQxxx x is not a great slam, so I would just bid 5♦.

[MrAce]

 cherdano, on 2012-June-29, 17:19, said:

Partner is showing 4351 with extras.

Even AKxx Axx KQxxx x is not a great slam, so I would just bid 5♦.

If this is a 2♥, what is a 3♥ over 2♣ for you ? ( Assume 1♠ was standart upto a bad 18)

[cherdano]

I agree that you can bid 3♥ with this, that's why I used "Even", but I could also imagine a partner bidding 2♥.

[JLOGIC]

 cherdano, on 2012-June-29, 17:19, said:

Partner is showing 4351 with extras.

Even AKxx Axx KQxxx x is not a great slam, so I would just bid 5♦.

How is this not a great slam lol?

[JLOGIC]

I would def try for slam, I'm not sure how, I guess 4C then 5D or something.

[gnasher]

I think 4♣ agrees hearts, so I'd bid 4♦.

[MrAce]

I would like to ask to slam seekers, what are we catering for pd to hold, when he didnt bid 3♥ ?

Is he supposed to bid something different with

Axxx
AJx
KQJxx
x

AJTx
Axx
KQJxx
x

I know 5 ♦ makes but, how are we supposed to to stop after lets say we jumped to 4♦ to set it as trumps as Gnasher said and we have enough keycards to play slam ?

And anything more than this he could (imo he should) start with 3♥, no ? (considering he only bid 1♠ previous round )

EDIT: I think some of us are playing this "showing extras" different than others. It definetely doesnt show 16-17 hcp the way i play it. I have 3♥ bid for those hands. To me this showing extras mean 'slightly extras than a dead minimum, which would have started with 2♥ at the first place but didnt. Something like 14-15 ish. or a super 13. So slam did not even occur to me to be honest.

[gnasher]

As I understand it, partner's bids mean the same as what they'd mean after 1♦-1♥;1♠-2♦ playing natural methods. In that auction I don't think 3♥ exists, because it would mean we had to play in 3♥ or 4♦ with a 4351 17-count opposite a 3433 6-count. This means that 2♥ has quite a wide range, but it's low enough for us to be able to sort out the game-versus-partscore decisions.

Opposite MrAce's examples, after 4♦, opener would bid 4♥, responder would bid 5♦ and opener would pass, knowing that we were missing ♣A and ♠K.

I agree there can sometimes be a problem in this type of auction, where we're simultaneously discussing controls and trying to decide whether we have the strength for slam. However, that won't occur on this hand, because responder will always just bid 4♦ followed by 5♦, and it will be clear that he doesn't have anything useful outside the red suits.

Instead of 4♦, we might start with 3♣, which ought to be FSF. That gives us two ways to bid 4♦, and the one via 3♣ is presumably stronger. I'm not suggesting that you should do this in a partnership where "all you discussed was XYZ and not the subsequent bids".

[JLOGIC]

I'm between mrace and gnasher, I think 3H exists but it would be a very rare call, either jumpshifting or bidding 2H now would be more likely. 3H would be some hand just shy of a jumpshift. I would not bid it with the 16 count suggested

[mfa1010]

I'm between mrace and jlogic. I would characterize 3♥ as rare, but not very rare.
I would try 4♦ now. That should show real fit while going through 3♣ is more like a probe for different strains.

[gszes]

2H shows extras but what kind>?? for ex could p bid 2h with say
Axxx Axx Kxxxxx void???? I believe so --the problem is how do we
continue knowing p might have a weak distrutional hand vs say one
with a tad less distribution but extra values???? AQJx JTx KQJxx x

since we feel p is trying to show club shortness almost any minimum hand
they might have will allow us to make 5d so i think it is reasonable
to bid what we think we can make and leave any further indiscretions to
p. P should know we dont have the club A for the least we could do was to
bid 5c on our way to 5d (I agree 4c should agree to hearts). This will still
allow p to move to slam if they have around 3 hcp extra for their 2h bid
say AQxx Axx Kxxxxx void (and a club void)

[benlessard]

Quote

I'm between mrace and gnasher, I think 3H exists but it would be a very rare call, either jumpshifting or bidding 2H now would be more likely. 3H would be some hand just shy of a jumpshift. I would not bid it with the 16 count suggested

Agree 100%. I would expect 3H to be at least a reverse and near a JS.

[MrAce]

I bid 4♥, i never expected a 16-17 hcp 4351 hand from pd. What i expected was a good 14 or 15 at max which is usually too good for simple 2♥ imo. And over a simple 2♥ bid it is close but i would probably pass.

Pd had less than i expected;

AJxx
ATx
QJ9xx
x

We made 4♥, i thought it was a good score with 22 hcp and 4-3 fit to reach game. Not that its a great game but reasonable in teams i guess.

For example if pd had what i expected,♦K or ♠K with an 15 hcp or so, thats how exactly he is supposed to bid imo.

If you add 1 more card it becomes huge and i dont see why he can not bid 3♥ with lets say.

AKxx
ATx
KQxxx
x

AQTx
AJx
KQxxx
x