[Phil]

"Breakin the Rules" - "When NT bids aren't natural".

[JLOGIC]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-03, 05:21, said:

I would assume 2N to be natural, since responder could so easily have that hand. I think my regular partner would agree, so I would not be nervous about using it at the table.
There is a good case for 2N unusual but much less so when opener can choose from 1N/2♣ with both minors.

I told jdonn that I thought it was natural because 2N is not needed as pick a minor given 1D 1M p p 1N as artificial, however I am not sure what kind of natural 2N bid is possible, wouldn't you basically always X 2H with a heart stopper and a trap pass? Or do you feel that like Kx of hearts is not enough to double with?

[JLOGIC]

Given that jdonn did not know about/think about/hear about 1D 1M p p 1N before he bid 2N though, I would def have thought 2N was pick minor.

[lalldonn]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-03, 05:15, said:

We play something similar:
1NT is both minors, equal or longer diamonds
2♣ is longer clubs.

Come to think about it, you could even bid randomly with equal length, I don't see any particular reason to have an agreement one way or the other.

[kenrexford]

In an undiscussed sequence, it is sometimes a good idea to have mega-agreements that cater to misunderstandings or to make calls that cater to misunderstandings. After the 2NT call, it might have been a good idea for Opener, having strength to accxept what he believed to be a game try, to then trot out his minor preference as a hedge. Responder, with an invite hand, might spot the protective hedge. Just a thought.

[jallerton]

JLOGIC, on 2012-July-03, 10:21, said:

I told jdonn that I thought it was natural because 2N is not needed as pick a minor given 1D 1M p p 1N as artificial, however I am not sure what kind of natural 2N bid is possible, wouldn't you basically always X 2H with a heart stopper and a trap pass? Or do you feel that like Kx of hearts is not enough to double with?

Yes to the last question. Double sounds like penalties to me. If you double 2♥ on ♥KJ9x and also on ♥Kx, partner will not be able to judge when to pull. Partner's failure to double 1♠ suggests that he lacks 3 hearts, and defending a 9-card fit at the 2-level (albeit with the spades badly placed for declarer) is not normally a good idea.

JLOGIC, on 2012-July-03, 10:23, said:

Given that jdonn did not know about/think about/hear about 1D 1M p p 1N before he bid 2N though, I would def have thought 2N was pick minor.

What would you have assumed 2♠ to be?

[lalldonn]

jallerton, on 2012-July-03, 15:39, said:

What would you have assumed 2♠ to be?

Natural for sure IMO

[JLOGIC]

jallerton, on 2012-July-03, 15:39, said:

Yes to the last question. Double sounds like penalties to me. If you double 2♥ on ♥KJ9x and also on ♥Kx, partner will not be able to judge when to pull. Partner's failure to double 1♠ suggests that he lacks 3 hearts, and defending a 9-card fit at the 2-level (albeit with the spades badly placed for declarer) is not normally a good idea.

Good point, double should probably be Hxx at least. In that case, a natural 2N is a useful bid to have available. I forgot partner cannot have heart length tbh.

[mfa1010]

lalldonn, on 2012-July-03, 11:19, said:

Come to think about it, you could even bid randomly with equal length, I don't see any particular reason to have an agreement one way or the other.

Nice point, never really thought about that.