[straube]

Partner and I very much like the idea of separating the semipositives from the double negatives in preparation for a competitive auction, but 1C-1H as all semipositives preempts us when we're in part score mode. Here's an outline that makes us +1 on more than half of our GF auctions and wrong-sides more than I would like...but it does improve the semipositive auctions. In the following, opener can reverse relay everything but both majors.


1C-1D all semipositives
.....1H-H or relay
..........1S-any with 4+ S (including H fit)
...............1N-relay
....................2C-bal
....................2D-S/H or S/H, m
....................2H-S/C
....................2S-S
....................etc-S/D
...............other-natural, nf
..........1N-bal, not 4M, forcing
...............2C-relay
..........2C-6C or C/D
...............2H-C/D
...............etc-C
..........2D-6D
...............2H-natural
...............2S-relay
..........2H-H/C
..........2S-5S, bal
..........etc-H/D
.....1S-natural
.....1N-17-18
.....2m-natural

1C-1H=S or bal
.....1S-relays
..........1N-bal
...............2C-relays
...............2D-S/C
...............2H-S
...............etc-S/D
..........2C-S/H, S/H/m
..........2D-S/C
..........2H-S
..........etc-S/D
.....1N-H, H/C, H/D
.....2C-C/D
.....2D-C
.....2H-C/D/m
.....etc-D

1C-1S=all double negatives

1C-1N=H, H/C, H/D

1C-2C=C/D

1C-2D-C

1C-2H-C/D/M

etc-D

[akhare]

Interesting scheme, but if you include Rob F.'s TOSR tweak, i.e., you can achieve parity with symmetric and still eat your cake:

1D: All SPs *and* GF with H/H+m
......1H: Ask; Hs or minors or other GF
..........1S: <Blah>
..........1N: <Blah>
..........2C: GF with H+C? -> Can be moved above if needed
..........2D: GF with Hs? -> Can be moved above if needed
..........2H+: GF with H+Ds? -> Can be moved if needed
......1S: Natural, F1 round
..........1N: GF relay?
......1N: Min bal
......2m: Natural
..........2H: GF relay

1H: Bal or S/S+m
......1N: S/S+C
......2C: Bal with major
......2D: Bal without major
......2H+: S+D
1S: DN
1N: H+S / 3 suited
....2D: 3 suited
....2H: H+S
2C: Minors
2D: Clubs
2H: Three suited
2S+: Diamonds

[straube]

akhare, on 2012-May-16, 14:10, said:

Interesting scheme, but if you include Rob F.'s TOSR tweak, i.e., you can achieve parity with symmetric and still eat your cake:

1D: All SPs *and* GF with H/H+m
......1H: Ask; Hs or minors or other GF
..........1S: <Blah>
..........1N: <Blah>
..........2C: GF with H+C? -> Can be moved above if needed
..........2D: GF with Hs? -> Can be moved above if needed
..........2H+: GF with H+Ds? -> Can be moved if needed
......1S: Natural, F1 round
..........1N: GF relay?
......1N: Min bal
......2m: Natural
..........2H: GF relay

1H: Bal or S/S+m
......1N: S/S+C
......2C: Bal with major
......2D: Bal without major
......2H+: S+D
1S: DN
1N: H+S / 3 suited
....2D: 3 suited
....2H: H+S
2C: Minors
2D: Clubs
2H: Three suited
2S+: Diamonds

What's his full deal? I thought his 1D response was 0-7 or GF H

[akhare]

straube, on 2012-May-16, 14:36, said:

What's his full deal? I thought his 1D response was 0-7 or GF H

Yes -- his scheme was as below, but you can borrow the basic premise:

http://www.ugcs.calt...hearts%20v2.doc

1D H/H+m/4441 GF, or almost all negatives (excluding 1-suited 6+ semipositives)
........1S any negative, or GF 4441
........1N H+C
2C H only
2D+ H+D

[straube]

akhare, on 2012-May-16, 14:52, said:

Yes -- his scheme was as below, but you can borrow the basic premise:

http://www.ugcs.calt...hearts%20v2.doc

1D H/H+m/4441 GF, or almost all negatives (excluding 1-suited 6+ semipositives)
........1S any negative, or GF 4441
........1N H+C
2C H only
2D+ H+D

There's a huge difference between 1D as all semipositives and 1D as 0-7 or heart positives. I see you're suggesting we add H positives to 1D as all semipositives. This would work sometimes, but would clash after 1C-1D, natural rebid. I'm obviously very down on 2-way bids.

The idea of 1D as all semipositives is a step closer to Moscito. I'm sure Marston looked at it. I wonder what he came up with.

[akhare]

straube, on 2012-May-16, 15:15, said:

There's a huge difference between 1D as all semipositives and 1D as 0-7 or heart positives. I see you're suggesting we add H positives to 1D as all semipositives. This would work sometimes, but would clash after 1C-1D, natural rebid. I'm obviously very down on 2-way bids.

Well, considering that both IMPrecision and Rob. F came up with a similar idea for 1D, there has to be some merit to it.

As I see it, there's a lot of room after 1C - 1D to sort out some GF hands from SP. Furthermore, given that the DN hands aren't a possibility, the continuations can't be that bad...

[awm]

Rob F and I do know each other (in person even) and some ideas were bounced back and forth so we did not come up with stuff 100% independently. I wouldn't read too much into it.

[straube]

I think they use their 1D response very differently.

If 1D is a 2-way response, then one needs to devote machinery to separating one from the other.

In awm's case, opener usually makes a natural rebid and some of the time, responder is able to pass with the DN...which economizes bidding room.

I don't quite follow Rob's structure because it seems like...

1C-1D, 1H doesn't promise extras (necessarily)

but

1C-1D, 1H-1S is 0-7

while

`C-1D, 1H-1N etc shows the GF heart hands....right?

But I think the auction must be very difficult after 1C-1D, 1H-1S. That's a 2-way bid followed by a 2-way bid followed by a 0-7 range.

awm, what do you think of this 1C-1D as all semipositives?

[awm]

I believe I'm already on record as not liking this approach. It seems like a big loser on the double negative and a mild loser on the positives. You get a step when you relay opposite a semi but those hands are rare and the tight range makes them easier.

It only makes sense if you get some huge gain when 4th hand intervenes but as I've said before I don't see it. I'd much rather have some shape info.

[straube]

Ok. Thanks. I worry about losing a step for the positives.

[rbforster]

straube, on 2012-May-16, 17:08, said:

I don't quite follow Rob's structure because it seems like...

1C-1D, 1H doesn't promise extras (necessarily)

but

1C-1D, 1H-1S is 0-7

while

`C-1D, 1H-1N etc shows the GF heart hands....right?

But I think the auction must be very difficult after 1C-1D, 1H-1S. That's a 2-way bid followed by a 2-way bid followed by a 0-7 range.

1C-1D-1H denies extras in my methods (with a few rare exceptions for jumps to 2N+ after a negative 1S response). After 1C-1D, with a minimum hand you bid 1H or 1S while with extras you bid 1N+ (naturally).

After 1C-1D-1H-1S, the bidding is natural for min NT, 5+ minor, or 6+ major. Responder with 0-4 will typically pass, or with 5-7 can invite, employ strong NT methods, etc. For me, 16-18 opposite 5-7 is already looking for some pretty thin games, so a lot of these auctions are just about finding the right partial.

[rbforster]

awm, on 2012-May-16, 18:17, said:

I believe I'm already on record as not liking this approach. It seems like a big loser on the double negative and a mild loser on the positives. You get a step when you relay opposite a semi but those hands are rare and the tight range makes them easier.

It only makes sense if you get some huge gain when 4th hand intervenes but as I've said before I don't see it. I'd much rather have some shape info.

straube, on 2012-May-16, 18:49, said:

Ok. Thanks. I worry about losing a step for the positives.

I agree with Adam on this. SP hands have all the same shapes as GFs, but with much tighter strength range. Thus it makes sense if you plan on relaying both shape and strength, to assign less space to SPs than GFs. For games this doesn't matter, but for slam purposes, you want to put your space to best use without risking going above game or your safety level while exploring.

I don't mind the TOSR approach of GF positives with relays, and a 0-7 1D that can get on a relay+2 track if opener shows extras with 1H and responder doesn't bid 1S showing a bust. That gets the SP hands showing shape with 1N+ instead of 1H+. Having them both on parity, i.e. GF and SP hands resolve at TOSR+1 instead of +0 and +2 seems to be a step in the wrong direction as it were, for the reasons above.

Myself, I downgrade the SP hands even more and don't even try to relay them. In exchange, I get my GF hands at TOSR-1 for the most part, which means a lot easier slam exploration. I'm not 100% sure this is the best tradeoff, but it doesn't seem like a bad one.

[straube]

rbforster, on 2012-May-17, 13:23, said:

1C-1D-1H denies extras in my methods (with a few rare exceptions for jumps to 2N+ after a negative 1S response). After 1C-1D, with a minimum hand you bid 1H or 1S while with extras you bid 1N+ (naturally).

After 1C-1D-1H-1S, the bidding is natural for min NT, 5+ minor, or 6+ major. Responder with 0-4 will typically pass, or with 5-7 can invite, employ strong NT methods, etc. For me, 16-18 opposite 5-7 is already looking for some pretty thin games, so a lot of these auctions are just about finding the right partial.

ok, so I see how having 1C-1D, 1H-1S as 0-7 is not a problem...because basically opener doesn't have extra anway.

But what do you do when opener has extra and wants to force after 1C-1D? I suppose your 1N rebid there is bigger and your 1S rebid is natural and forcing? What though for the rest? I mean, it seems like you must postpone the difficulty of subdividing the 0-7 as well as the GF heart hands.

So 1C-1D, 2C is...?

[straube]

rbforster, on 2012-May-17, 13:37, said:

I agree with Adam on this. SP hands have all the same shapes as GFs, but with much tighter strength range. Thus it makes sense if you plan on relaying both shape and strength, to assign less space to SPs than GFs. For games this doesn't matter, but for slam purposes, you want to put your space to best use without risking going above game or your safety level while exploring.

I don't mind the TOSR approach of GF positives with relays, and a 0-7 1D that can get on a relay+2 track if opener shows extras with 1H and responder doesn't bid 1S showing a bust. That gets the SP hands showing shape with 1N+ instead of 1H+. Having them both on parity, i.e. GF and SP hands resolve at TOSR+1 instead of +0 and +2 seems to be a step in the wrong direction as it were, for the reasons above.

Myself, I downgrade the SP hands even more and don't even try to relay them. In exchange, I get my GF hands at TOSR-1 for the most part, which means a lot easier slam exploration. I'm not 100% sure this is the best tradeoff, but it doesn't seem like a bad one.

Yeah, I'm not so much trying to save steps for the SPs (most but the balanced hands are still +2) so much as find low level fits. It's occasionally annoying that our opener can't even rebid 2C natural after 1C-1H showing 5-7.
Obviously we have trouble with 1435 and 1354 and such. With 1C-1D as 5-7 no problem.

I really do like separating the 0-4 from 5-7 right away. I know that not everyone cares as much, but I like to know whether partner is totally broke or not.

We defended against a strong club auction the other day...

1C P 1D (1N minors)
dbl P 2H P
2S P 3H P
4C P 4H P
4S P 5C alerted as RKC for hearts
all pass

I think at least part of the problem they had was not knowing 0-4 or 5-7. Opener had to double to show extras and then who knows what was forcing and what wasn't after that. I feel like we wouldn't have had this problem.

Overall, pretty happy with 1H as all semipositives though we do trade part score accuracy for game/slam accuracy.

[rbforster]

straube, on 2012-May-17, 14:32, said:

ok, so I see how having 1C-1D, 1H-1S as 0-7 is not a problem...because basically opener doesn't have extra anway.

But what do you do when opener has extra and wants to force after 1C-1D?

The very simple version is:

1C(16+) -1D(0-7 or ♥/♥+m/4441 GF):

1♥ min values, bal or 1-suited
1♠ min values, 2 suited
1N 19-21 balanced or 4441
2♣ near GF or better, "strong 2C opener"
2♦♥♠ 5+ extras, unbalanced
3♣ 5+ extras unbalanced

As you can probably guess, I am not happy with a simple version when a more complicated version with 3rd round relays could be better. Adding various tweaks you can keep the club hands from forcing to the 3 level with only a 5 card suit, emphasize majors a little more in showing minimum 2-suiters, and stuff in various strong hands like extra strength 6m/4M or 5/5 hands into various jump rebids by opener.

straube, on 2012-May-17, 14:32, said:

it seems like you must postpone the difficulty of subdividing the 0-7 as well as the GF heart hands.

That's true to some extent, although opener is pretty limited in terms of range (20-22ish for not rebidding 2♣) so responder is in the drivers' seat with the rare GFs. Since the 0-4 hands will typically pass (or transfer and pass over NT), hands with SP or better values are GF anyway opposite 20+. This sometimes means you can't convey your extras as well, but it hasn't been a big problem.

One drawback to these methods is that you don't get to use the full shape relays when opener has extras and responder has a GF. I judged that tradeoff to be acceptable since

1. it's not that common that responder has a GF positive when opener has 20+ points.
2. you have enough strength that natural methods can probably find the right strain and investigate slam without getting too high

[benlessard]

IMO

1D as H or SP
1H = S weak or GF
1S = No M w or GF
1NT = clubs w or GF
2C = D W or GF
2D = 6H W or GF
2H = 6S w or GF

Is by far the best setup I have played and im pretty convinced its one of the best setup. Not playing transfer over a strong clubs is IMO worse than not playing transfer over a strong Nt.

[straube]

Rob, thanks for explaining your system and letting me poke at it a little. I see that your awkward auctions are at least rare. All of these club systems have their tradeoffs.

[straube]

Widening the semipositives to 2-5 QPs. Basically, this structure devotes more room comparatively to the SPs, so I'm placing a little more stress on them. It's important that responder holding a semipositive be able to force game (whether holding 5 QPs or less) so responder's bids are forcing until opener attempts a sign off...such as not relaying.

1C-1D all semipositives (2-5 QPs)
.....1H-H or relay
..........1S-any with 4+ S (including H fit)
...............1N-relay
....................2C-bal
.........................2D-relays
..............................2H-min
...................................2S-relays
........................................2N-5S
........................................3C-4234
........................................3D-4324
........................................3H-4243
........................................3S-4342
........................................3N-4333
..............................2S-4H/4S any
..............................2N-5S, max
..............................3C-4234, max
..............................3D-4324, max
..............................3H-4243, max
..............................3S-4342, max
..............................3N-4333, max
....................2D-S/H or S/H, m
....................2H-S/C
....................2S-S
....................etc-S/D
...............other-natural, nf
..........1N-C or C/D
...............2C-to play
...............2D-relay
....................2H-C
....................2S-4D/5C
....................2N-5D/5C
....................etc
..........2C-6 diamonds
...............2S-relay
..........2D-bal, no major
...............2H-natural
...............2S-relay
....................2N-5C or 3334
....................3C-4D/4C
....................3D-3352
....................3H-3253
....................3S-2353
....................3N-3343
..........2H-H/C
..........2S-5S, bal
..........etc-H/D
.....1S-natural
.....1N-17-18
.....2m-natural

1C-1H=S or bal
.....1S-relays
..........1N-bal
...............2C-relays
...............2D-S/C
...............2H-S
...............etc-S/D
..........2C-S/H, S/H/m
..........2D-S/C
..........2H-S
..........etc-S/D
.....1N-H, H/C, H/D
.....2C-C/D
.....2D-C
.....2H-C/D/m
.....etc-D

1C-1S=all double negatives

1C-1N=H, H/C, H/D

1C-2C=C/D

1C-2D-C

1C-2H-C/D/M

etc-D

[straube]

tally for 100 hands

1D-56 (2-5 QPs)
1H-19
1S-18
other-7

thinking of shifting the 5 QP hands back into GF

[rbforster]

benlessard, on 2012-May-17, 21:50, said:

IMO

1D as H or SP
1H = S weak or GF
1S = No M w or GF
1NT = clubs w or GF
2C = D W or GF
2D = 6H W or GF
2H = 6S w or GF

Is by far the best setup I have played and im pretty convinced its one of the best setup. Not playing transfer over a strong clubs is IMO worse than not playing transfer over a strong Nt.

This seems like it would be pretty interesting - different than many structures I've seen and it seems to have a lot of potential for very efficient continuations.